| Brood Brother |
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Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:45 pm
Posts: 85
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Well, after 5 or so games in the Campaign with the 8.4 list, I have some general feedback from both myself and my opponents.
Bear in mind we are not professionals...but all of us love Epic, all of us have multiple armies, and combined we have somewhere in the neighborhood of 100+ years of experience with Epic, 40k, and WFB.  We generally know what we are doing.
In any event, here are the general comments.
Special Rules:
--Tyranid Swarms. Works well, the 15cm Synapse Range is a nicely limiting factor. People like that creatures outside of Synapse are simply removed. Good stuff. A+
--Instinctive. Mixed reviews here. Some people don't like that Instinctive Swarms can still lend Supporting Fire, but when I point out that they have a +2 activation difficulty AND the fact that the SR of 1 means I almost always go last, which would mean without Instinctive I would be playing with half an army most of the time, most people accept it. It is definitely NOT confusing. Overall, I think this rule works well to represent the Tyranid psyche. I like the "last-ditch desperation assault" aspect of it, and the main problem that has been discussed (Instinctive swarms "bouncing" around and getting multiple actions/Supports/Withdrawal Moves) has never happened. I did have a Swarm consisting of a Vituperator, 2 Trygons, and 8 Hormagaunts weather 3 sequential Assaults, then proceed to Hold, lay down some BM's with shooting, and lend support to a subsequent Warrior Swarm Assault, brutalizing the enemy, but a lot of that can be attributed to truly horrible rolling on my opponent's part. Decent. A solid B. Better, IMO, than the other options discussed. Don't really have any suggestions for improvements here.
--Relentless. Works fine. No issues. A.
--Voracious. Works fine also...and sort of necessary when your only SC option costs 450 points and is a giant TK-weapon target. A.
--Regeneration. Works ok. Annoys some people, but its FAR less powerful than Void Shields, Holo-fields, and the like. B+.
--Spawning. I get the most complaints about Spawning in general. Without it, the 'Nids would have to have either more general Speed or a lot better Shooting to compensate, and most opponents agree with that assessment. Everyone can also live with Spawning in general...most think its very fluffy and a necessary evil. NO ONE wants to see "automatic" Spawning. Definitely need to keep the Rally test. Other than that, the mechanism in place works fine, although I'd still like to see random Synapse points. D3+1 instead of 3, D3 instead of 2. Just a touch or randomness. B+.
Overall, the Special Rules seem to work fine. Very few alternate suggestions to change them have been presented by my group. The biggest complaints seem to be about Instinctive and Spawning, but people tend to agree that changing those rules would require other changes in the list. For example, using Markconz' suggestions for Instinctive (basically just being outright broken) would probably require a change in the SR of the army, so they at least have a CHANCE of going first. Its very easy to drive 1-2 units Instinctive with simple Firefights before the 'Nid player even gets to move a model, every turn. The current Instinctive rules mitigate that somewhat. Changing that requires other changes. My vote would be to keep it.
On to units.
Synapse:
--Dominatrix. Well, I personally think its too expensive and too much of a giant bulls-eye to see regular use. Costs as much (essentially) as a Warhound Formation, with the same total DC, but lacking the 4 Void Shields and their Firepower. In order to keep it alive, you basically have to give it 1-2 Hierodule bodyguards, upping the cost even further. OTOH, I don't really have any suggestions to improve it that wouldn't amount to it becoming too good. I suppose, with 2 Hierodules at 700 points, its just as good as any other Heavy Titan out there, possibly even better. I just have trouble sinking that much into one formation (in the same way I hardly every see people fielding Warlords). Ah well.
--Harridan. I've seen the discussions on its uselessness, and I disagree. I think it has PLENTY of good uses. Flying up next to something, dropping off 4 Gargs and some BM's on the target Formation, then Supporting the subsequent Assault from another Swarm...good stuff. Super-fast end-around to claim objectives, also good stuff. I think it should be kept as-is.
--Hive Tyrant. Works fine. Do NOT drop it to a 3+ non-RA save...just makes it too vulnerable to a stray shot. You'd have to put so many meat-shields around it at that point it just wouldn't be worth it.
--Synapse Node. Should have Regen like every other Synapse WE, but I do get a lot of complaints about the Node/Dactylis Garrison Technique. People think its too hard to take out. Until someone pointed out TK Pinpoint Strikes from Orbit. Now opinions seem to be changing. Regen or not, it seems to work fine. Regen would just be for consistency's sake.
--Warriors. Work great. Don't change a thing.
--Vituperator. Another superb unit. Very, very different from all the others, providing variety. Probably my very favorite Synapse unit, despite the fact that I NEVER hit anything with the Flamer Template. Keep it just as is.
Independent:
--Broodlord. Eh. Whatever. Awfully expensive for what he does. If the 'Stealers need him to win a fight, well, you probably lost anyway. He's fine in or out of the list. I like him just for the sake of completeness and the coolness factor, but I have trouble justifying the 50 extra points. Probably a good thing that way.
--Stealers. These work pretty well. Dangerous enough to make my opponent target them first when I Garrison them, but not heinous enough to really overwhelm anything (unless the opponent simply ignores them). A superb cannon-fodder/distraction unit. Mine usually end up ALMOST wiped out, then falling back and guarding my own objectives while everything else rushes forward. Buys the other Swarms a round of not being shot to hell. Great execution on the unit.
--Lictors. Ugh. I like how they work personally, but I definitely see the objections to the "all-or-nothing" aspect of them. But, hey, thats how Teleporting units work. If you make them too tough (RA, for example), while taking away their Killiness (losing the MW attack), I really think they would end up being even more useless. You'll end up with BM's after Teleporting, get more when you get shot at before Engaging, then Engage with an extra Lictor or two (from the extra survivability) and kill half as much stuff. I'd probably use them a lot less if this happened. They need to be a THREAT to be effective, and 2-5 Teleporting Genestealers are not really a Threat. Again, I like how they work right now.
--Hierophant/Hydraphant. I think these work fine as-is. Leave them be. Or, instead of making them better (I saw a suggestion to add Invulnerable to them), make them a bit cheaper...250/350, perhaps. Seems about right.
--Mieotic Spores. I think these could be executed much better with my WE idea...see the Tyranid AA thread.
Brood Creatures:
--Biovore/Exocrine/Dactylis. These units function fine, except for the Armor save on the Dactylis and Exocrine. Its the exact same model as the Haruspex and Malefactor, and they cost more, so why is their armor SO much worse? Go with a 3+ on both. They should at least be Dreadnought tough. Everything else is good, though, including ranges.
--Carnifex. Another Ugh. I am really in favor of making them reflect their 40k toughness with a 4+RA save, but, after playing with them for a few games now, I think it might make them too powerful. Too good. It would definitely require a points increase...to probably 125. Perhaps an Invulnerable save would be the answer. I am torn on this issue currently.
--Gargoyle. Lose the AA attack, OR make it remove a base of Gargs if it hits (funny stuff there, humor is good), drop them back to Brood (1). Keep the points the same. They ARE worth more than Termagaunts, for the extra response move they get, but they are not Disposable, so that makes losing them suck. If you want to bring them back and lose them again for more BM's, it shouldn't cost twice as much as the other Gaunts.
--Haruspex/Malefactors. The Haruspex are perfect, the Malefactors are a bit...underwhelming. OTOH, I see their uses, and I appreciate the fact that they fulfill two VERY different roles. I've used both, and I like both, but I think its a shame that the Malefactors giant claws do NOTHING in a CC. I'd give it Extra Attacks (+1) in CC...no MW, just an extra normal attack. Not its job to CC, but, if engaged by the enemy, it should still be a Tyranid Monster with 2 big Claws.
--Hierodules. Good as is, but either dump Thick Rear Armor from the one or add it to the other for consistency's sake. Its the same beast with different arms.
--Ravener. Dunno, have no models, never used it. I probably wouldn't anyway, since its so expensive. Can't really comment here.
--Gaunts. Both are perfect as-is. Great reflection of their 40k stats, to be sure.
--Trygon. EVERY other WE has a 4+RA (oops...Harridan has a 5+RA). Its 25 points less than a Hierodule, and has 1 less DC. Dump the Inv Save, give it 4+ RA, and a single extra MW attack in CC to represent its giant Scything Talons. A simple change.
--Zoanthrope. I currently find these to be utterly useless. For starters, their stats do not reflect their 40k counterparts. In 40k, they have multiple wounds and a 2+ Warp Field save. They should not be LV's. They should be AV's, without RA. Their weapon is a fairly accurate representation of what it is in the other game, but its not useful enough to me to justify wasting points on them (espcially since they can be picked out of AV or INF formations). It was also very cool to have AA on them. There is no reason that they couldn't have AV status with a 5+ or 4+ non-RA save and the same Energy Pulse as the Dominatrix. I would actually find them worth fielding at that point, and would do so. Make them 3 for 125 or 150 points...basically, with a Hive Tyrant, you should be having a tough time deciding whether you want to guard him with Carnifex, Haruspex, Malefactors OR Zoanthropes. Right now, the Zoanthropes are completely out of the running, IMO.
Army List:
My opponents like very much the "standardized" format of the Tyranid list now. I personally love it. The restrictions and costs are all pretty spot-on, and I especially appreciate the fact that I can usually spend all my points, since its a multiple of 25.
There is NO reason to quibble over 5 point differences in units. I find that truly asinine. If something is worth 20 points, its worth 25. If its worth 35, 3 for 100 works FINE. I can come up with plenty more examples. Having to buy each individual model for X points is tedious and pointless. Except for the occasional cost, such as maybe a 25-point break on the Hiero/Hydraphant, or a 25-point increase on Carnis and Zoanthropes if the stats are bettered, I would leave everything as-is.
{rant on}One thing I really hated in the list reviews that have taken place are the quibbles over points costs. Lowering a unit by a few points or giving it some odd-ass points value just irks me. 85 points for a Land Raider upgrade? An extra Nob for 35 points? A Gunfortress for 135? Who came up with that? Why not just make it 25, 100, 125, whatever, points, since I won't get to spend that 15 points at the end anyway? Argh. Aggravating. Nothing can possibly be so fine-tuned, given the sheer amount of variables between lists and units that we deal with. Get over it already. Is that Land Raider worth 85 points against every army you can imagine? Rounding, people, rounding. Makes everyone's lives easier.{rant off}
Specific notes on the Army List:
--The Brood Nest gets very positive reviews. People think its fluffy, cool, and useful, without being too good. Keep it. Good stuff.
--Synapse Groups. 1 Hive Tyrant is too damn fragile. They die to stupid things. Like Dangerous Terrain tests. Another entry needs to be added: 2 Hive Tyrants for 225 (or even 250) points. I can already field 5 Spawning points (Tyrant and 2 Warriors) in a powerful Mixed formation for a price break of 25 points. Why can't I lead my Swarm with the same thing that every single 40k Tyranid player uses, i.e. 2 Tyrants? It makes sense, its hardly overwhelming, and you could charge extra for the privelage. Make the Tyrant useful again, or at least less prone to stupid accidents.
Well, thats it. My review of the current list. I think its VERY well done, with minor quibbles here and there. A few points costs, a couple units stat changes, maybe random dice on the Spawning again. Simple stuff, fine-tuning.
YMMV, of course. My opinions only. More BatReps to come.
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