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[Special Rules] Evolutionary Deathmatch!
Chroma
 Post subject: [Special Rules] Evolutionary Deathmatch!
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 2:14 pm 
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Well, for the most part, it's been a lot of talk and not a lot of play discussion the various special rules... with "Spawning" and "Instinctive" being the main areas of trouble.

Enough with the "debate", let's settle this Tyranid-style with: survival of the fittest! ?*laugh* ?

Currently there are "Special Rules" proposals from Hena, Markconz (with assist from Dave), and myself, at least those are the ones that I'm aware of, please let me know if any are missing.

In the next few days, I'll be putting together a "special rules" packet detailing each of the proposals, with any appropriate changes to unit stats necessary, vetting these with the proposers, and then posting them for playtest.

And I *do* mean PLAYTEST; if you can't be bothered to help with development by actually recording playtests (especially easy with my Playtest sheets), please explain why I should give weight to your opinions? ?I need *details*, if opponents don't like something or find something confusing, tell me *what* they find confusing, and if re-reading or play examples clarify things or not.

If you don't have a lot of time, play *smaller* games. ?If you don't have opponents, play against *yourself*! ?I want detailed reports showing the nuances and effects of the differences in instinctive and spawning primarily. ?Choose one of the "option sets" presented, play the game, even comment on how one of the other "sets" would've worked in the situation... and then play again using a different "set" if possible!

Go forth and evolve!

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Special Rules] Evolutionary Deathmatch!
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:01 pm 
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When, not *if*, you post a batrep for this, please start it in its own thread with a [Deathmatch] tag, thanks!

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Special Rules] Evolutionary Deathmatch!
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:00 pm 
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Okay, I've got the "final" versions of the three "change options" documents.

There's one from Markconz and Dave, one from Hena and one from myself. ?These "change options" are to be used, individually, as a "patch" to the 8.4 rules. ?Please read over the documents carefully as some changes may be subtle or unexpected... do not rely on your previous assumptions about the Tyranid rules. ?And if you have any questions: ASK! ?

The basic Tyranid v8.4 can be found here: Tyranids 8.4

Note that not just the actual "Special Rules" are changed, but there are some stat/point changes as well. ?Fluff text has been trimmed to a minimun, as this is a focus on the rules.

Pick one you'd like to playtest, make an army, and then fight and report! ?Please use *all* the options presented in the set you choose, don't cherry-pick if you want to participate in this. ?

Be sure to let you opponents know ahead of time that this is to be a *playtest* not a simple "friendly game". ?That doesn't mean don't have fun, but it's not for bragging rights, campaign play, or anything else.

Playtests should, for maximum value, be played using the core rules from the Epic Armageddon Handbook - Alpha v2.0 ?update, put together by Markconz.

Each version of the "change options" will have it's own pinned thread here and you can discuss you likes and dislikes and questions about the options there, but thoughts based on actual playtesting will be given more weight than just number-crunching.

Markconz Genus Variant

Hena Genus Variant

Chroma Genus Variant

As well, if you do a battle report, please make it as detailed as possible (use these Battle Report Game Log Sheets to make things easier on you) and create a new thread with a [Deathmatch] tag.

Thanks again for all your input and support!

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Steve54
 Post subject: [Special Rules] Evolutionary Deathmatch!
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 2:04 pm 
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Another point is which 'game' rules to use, I've seen reports using every rule change in the handbooks which would seem pointless as it is highly unlikely that all the changes will go through.

Perhaps a baseline of using all rules marked official, ERC approved and widely accepted might be adopted.

EDIT
Sorry didn't see the post above as I was scrolling past the arguing
I still think that only using the more likely changes for testing would be preferable




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Dave
 Post subject: [Special Rules] Evolutionary Deathmatch!
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 4:08 pm 
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I got a 3K and 2K game in again Tristan's marines on Sunday, I will have the batreps up sometime this week.

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Special Rules] Evolutionary Deathmatch!
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 4:20 pm 
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(Dave @ Nov. 19 2007,15:08)
QUOTE
I got a 3K and 2K game in again Tristan's marines on Sunday, I will have the batreps up sometime this week.

Sounds good!  Did you only use one variant or did you mix it up?

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Markconz
 Post subject: [Special Rules] Evolutionary Deathmatch!
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:24 pm 
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(Steve54 @ Nov. 19 2007,12:04)
QUOTE
Another point is which 'game' rules to use, I've seen reports using every rule change in the handbooks which would seem pointless as it is highly unlikely that all the changes will go through.

Perhaps a baseline of using all rules marked official, ERC approved and widely accepted might be adopted.

There has been almost no feedback criticising most of the changes, despite them being posted here and at SG specifically for that purpose, for well over a month now (and they have after all come after 3 years of extensive  development and feedback processes before that). Additionally the historical 'change status' has made little difference to which rules are actually popular ones in what little feedback there has been.  

I'm forced to conclude that most people are happy with the vast majority of them (certainly those who actually bother posting battle reports here).  Thus contrary to what you say, I think it makes far more sense to use the whole lot when playtesting (as people have already been doing), given that something very close to those documents is likely to be the new experimental rules most people will be using.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [Special Rules] Evolutionary Deathmatch!
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:30 pm 
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The only issue that remains contentious for me in the handbook is the sponson weapons on SHT's gaining fire arcs... quite a minor issue.

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Kagetora
 Post subject: [Special Rules] Evolutionary Deathmatch!
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:55 am 
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(Markconz @ Nov. 19 2007,21:24)
QUOTE

(Steve54 @ Nov. 19 2007,12:04)
QUOTE
Another point is which 'game' rules to use, I've seen reports using every rule change in the handbooks which would seem pointless as it is highly unlikely that all the changes will go through.

Perhaps a baseline of using all rules marked official, ERC approved and widely accepted might be adopted.

There has been almost no feedback criticising most of the changes, despite them being posted here and at SG specifically for that purpose, for well over a month now (and they have after all come after 3 years of extensive ?development and feedback processes before that). Additionally the historical 'change status' has made little difference to which rules are actually popular ones in what little feedback there has been. ?

I'm forced to conclude that most people are happy with the vast majority of them (certainly those who actually bother posting battle reports here). ?Thus contrary to what you say, I think it makes far more sense to use the whole lot when playtesting (as people have already been doing), given that something very close to those documents is likely to be the new experimental rules most people will be using.

We've chosen to use the entire document for our campaign, and, as far as I can tell, it is a well-liked change.  I don't think we have come up with an issue yet where we think or say "why did they change THAT?"  Quite the opposite, actually...nearly every change we find gets the same general comment..."That was an intelligent change."

Thanks for the Hard Work.   :)
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Markconz
 Post subject: [Special Rules] Evolutionary Deathmatch!
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 6:09 am 
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(Hena @ Nov. 20 2007,03:46)
QUOTE
Also realise that UK tournament are not going to use them, so that's a great loss.

Given that a number of UK people are already using them, and others have queried using them in tournaments, and personal communications from UK people I have had,  I would say it is far too soon to make such a statement.  

Furthermore it is hardly your place to state definitively what people in the UK will or will not do in the future - based on idle comments from a few people, before the rule changes are even finalised.  'We will see what happens', would be a far more honest appraisal of the situation.

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Markconz
 Post subject: [Special Rules] Evolutionary Deathmatch!
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 6:16 am 
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(Kagetora @ Nov. 19 2007,23:55)
QUOTE
We've chosen to use the entire document for our campaign, and, as far as I can tell, it is a well-liked change.  I don't think we have come up with an issue yet where we think or say "why did they change THAT?"  Quite the opposite, actually...nearly every change we find gets the same general comment..."That was an intelligent change."

Thanks for the Hard Work.   :)

Cheers, though I'm really just the scribe recording the details of course  :)  The actual rule changes themselves are the result of many many peoples work over the years.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: [Special Rules] Evolutionary Deathmatch!
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:20 am 
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(Markconz @ Nov. 20 2007,11:09)
QUOTE
Given that a number of UK people are already using them, and others have queried using them in tournaments, and personal communications from UK people I have had,  I would say it is far too soon to make such a statement.  

Furthermore it is hardly your place to state definitively what people in the UK will or will not do in the future - based on idle comments from a few people, before the rule changes are even finalised.  'We will see what happens', would be a far more honest appraisal of the situation.

Matt does the UK tourneys and goes with the lowest common denominator for rules changes. Any changes would ultimately rest with him and as we ultimately do fine with the rulebook and the 2-3 changes so far implemented I wouldn't be surprised if any further changes wait for an official pronouncement.

The situation to avoid is not to iron out every rule problem but ensure if someone turns up to play they do so with a common set.

Thinking back to living in London I had depending on time of year 6-12 Epic opponents floating around, but only Gavin regularly looks online and Michael did occasionally a year or so back.

When doing all this stuff I hope everyone never forgets that most players do not bother with online Epic forums. They want to play a fun wargame.

The UK tourneys are organised with this fun player in mind, not the fanatic. Indeed judging from the people who play its the right call.

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Markconz
 Post subject: [Special Rules] Evolutionary Deathmatch!
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:28 pm 
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Chris what you say is absolutely true, every word of it.

However, having everything in a convenient handbook means you no longer have to be a fanatic to use all the updated rules. In fact it will be even less effort for new players than using the core rules - which are spread over many different documents.  Thus I expect resistance to it to start to swing the other way, because for the vast majority of players ease of use is far more important  than anal bickering over minor rules details.

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Special Rules] Evolutionary Deathmatch!
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:32 pm 
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(Markconz @ Nov. 19 2007,21:24)
QUOTE
I'm forced to conclude that most people are happy with the vast majority of them (certainly those who actually bother posting battle reports here). ?Thus contrary to what you say, I think it makes far more sense to use the whole lot when playtesting (as people have already been doing), given that something very close to those documents is likely to be the new experimental rules most people will be using.

Gentlemen, this is not the place for a discussion of the Markconz Codex, please stick to the topic at hand.

As well, if you wish to continue this discussion of core rules changes, please copy your posts to the EA Rules thread as I'll be deleting them from this thread soon.

Thanks for your understanding!

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