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[Pre-release 8.5] Spawning

Chroma

Post subject: [Pre-release 8.5] Spawning

Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 10:49 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
Posts: 9684
Location: Montréal, QC, Canada

Hena and I have been hashing over spawing ideas lately and here's what we've come up with.

Please give it a read and tear it apart! The "Synapse (+x)" values will be different than the 8.4 ones.

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Chroma

Post subject: [Pre-release 8.5] Spawning

Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 10:50 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
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Location: Montréal, QC, Canada

Spawning: One of the most terrifying things about fighting Tyranids is that there seems to be no end to the number of creatures in the army. Even if an attack is stopped, more Tyranids will soon appear to renew it.

Spawning allows the Tyranid player to return Brood creature units to play that have been killed, removed from play, or held in reserve. Spawning is treated as a Rally test, including all applicable modifiers, with a successful result being the number of spawn points generated; this value is halved if any enemy units are within 30cm of the spawning formation. Synapse creatures then add their Synapse (+x) value to generate the total Spawn Points available to the swarm.

Each Brood creature has a spawning cost based upon its general availability to the Tyranid army as a whole. Brood creatures have "Brood (x)" in their notes where "x" equals the number of spawn points required to return the creature to play. All spawned units must be placed within 5cm of any Synapse creature from that swarm. They may not be placed in the zone of control of enemy units or in impassable terrain. Not all spawn points must be used and any extras are discarded.

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Kagetora

Post subject: [Pre-release 8.5] Spawning

Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 11:29 pm

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Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:45 pm
Posts: 85

Well, if this would allow me to field Synapse Groups again (i.e. 2 Hive Tyrants instead of 1, since the extra only adds +1 to the total), I'd be up for it.

But, it seems a bit like this is falling into the category of "change for the sake of change." I get enough of that at work. :laugh:

Care to explain some reasoning behind it? I mean, I like the random aspect of it, more than I like the current fixed values. But it seems a bit TOO random, perhaps.
Also, it seems like a bit of mathmatical and dice gymnastics. Might be unneeded complexity.

--First, you roll to Rally, with all modifiers.
--Then, you divide that roll in half if enemy are within 30cm. Otherwise, thats how many points you get.
--Then you add in Synapse.
--Then you add in extra Synapse.
--Finally you actually choose and return models to the table.

On top of all of that, you are going to go back and fiddle with all the Synapse (x) and probably some of the Brood (x) ratings.

Isn't it much easier to just roll to Rally, then roll some d3's to generate points? Doesn't it accomplish the same thing?

Personally, I'd just inject the random element back into the mix by changing the Synapse values on the list and keeping all the other rules the same.

For example...Synapse 3 goes back to d3+1. 2-4 instead of a flat 3. Synapse 2 goes to d3. 1-3 instead of 2. Synapse 1 remains Synapse 1. Modifiers (further D3's) as normal. Brood (x) remains the same.

As I said, I'd like to know the reasoning behind the change. I'll withhold a yea or nay until then.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: [Pre-release 8.5] Spawning

Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 11:36 pm

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Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
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Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire

I played two games under 8.4 today... I have to say that I appreciated the more fixed spawn values.

Can you give a point-by-point account as to how this new system would work?

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: [Pre-release 8.5] Spawning

Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 11:44 pm

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1, Warriors near enemy (less then 30cm). Roll 4 (-1 for being close), so it's 3. They create 2 pips.

But there are three warrior bases... so they actually spawn 5?

I quite liked the 8.4 rules I played with today.

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Chroma

Post subject: [Pre-release 8.5] Spawning

Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 11:48 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
Posts: 9684
Location: Montréal, QC, Canada

(Evil and Chaos @ Nov. 10 2007,22:44)

QUOTE

1, Warriors near enemy (less then 30cm). Roll 4 (-1 for being close), so it's 3. They create 2 pips.

But there are three warrior bases... so they actually spawn 5?

Warriors have (Synapse +0) in this iteration, with a note : "Tyranid warriors accompanying any other Synapse creature give a +1 bonus to its Synapse value"

Still in development phase...

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Markconz

Post subject: [Pre-release 8.5] Spawning

Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 11:55 pm

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Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm
Posts: 7925
Location: New Zealand

Unnecessarily complex in terms of mechanics, and reminds me of Hena's previous efforts here. It's more appropriate to a set of rules like Dirtside than Epic. The differences all these convolutions make just are not worth the extra effort and 'mental gymnastics' as Kagetora terms them. So many steps that could be simplified into a much more elegant mechanism, and with so little difference in actual outcome.

I still much prefer this.

Maybe I should go ahead and make an alternative list.

Sorry but I have 4 tyranid players in my group and this process just seems to be rearranging broken mechanics at the moment.

Edit - if that sounded harsh well, at least I do like the reduction down to a single dice roll, though once again such an extensive list of modifiers just isn't necessary in my view.

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Chroma

Post subject: [Pre-release 8.5] Spawning

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 12:13 am

Brood Brother

Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
Posts: 9684
Location: Montréal, QC, Canada

(Markconz @ Nov. 10 2007,22:55)

QUOTE

Unnecessarily complex in terms of mechanics

It's simple addition and rounding... same as rolling a couple of d3s... ?*laugh*

I still much prefer this.

Yeah, that's a good system too, but it's "automatic" spawning and I think opponents will have a problem with that... I'd like a system that feels balanced and fair to both players.

Maybe I should go ahead and make an alternative list.

Sorry but I have 4 tyranid players in my group and this process just seems to be rearranging broken mechanics at the moment.
I think the Tyranid list is the one with the most extensive amount of development going on and I don't think it's just "rearranging broken mechanics", there have been some radical changes, getting Blast markers for starters, that need lots of testing to figure out.

Tyranids have come a long way, but they've still got a way to go. ?They are the most unusual and alien army in the game so the list will need the most amount of work.

I don't think we should be breaking off into Splinter Fleets quite yet, but I can do nothing but ask you not to, if you decide to "go your own way."

I *would* recommend trying your system Markconz and reporting back the results! ?Nothing is set in stone and I'd like to see the best possible system evolve.

Edit - if that sounded harsh well, at least I do like the reduction down to a single dice roll, though once again such an extensive list of modifiers just isn't necessary in my view.
There is no "extensive list of modifiers", it's Rally test plus Synapse value, that's it.

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Kagetora

Post subject: [Pre-release 8.5] Spawning

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 12:27 am

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Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:45 pm
Posts: 85

(Evil and Chaos @ Nov. 10 2007,22:44)

QUOTE

I quite liked the 8.4 rules I played with today.

I concur. It seemed very simple and effective for a mechanic. As I said, I'd like to see the return of a d3 roll (d3+1 instead of 3, d3 instead of 2, etc.), but thats a very minor point. I like to roll dice. :;):

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Kagetora

Post subject: [Pre-release 8.5] Spawning

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 12:40 am

Brood Brother

Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:45 pm
Posts: 85

(Chroma @ Nov. 10 2007,23:13)

QUOTE

Yeah, that's a good system too, but it's "automatic" spawning and I think opponents will have a problem with that... I'd like a system that feels balanced and fair to both players.

I guess I agree with this too. Automatic Spawning just feels too...powerful. Also, your system doesn't address casualties the same way the current one does (does 1 Warrior still generate d3 points)?

I mean, don't get me wrong...in the 2 BatReps I posted, I failed a LOT of Spawning rolls. Especially on the Instinctive Formations. That sucked. But it seemed reasonably fair to me. If I were to change anything about the current system, it would be that the roll is an fixed value, not a Rally Test with all appropriate modifiers. It would seem to me that an Instinctive Synapse creature would be trying to gather up as many "meatshields" as it could, not hiding and cowering.

A Rally test makes it a bit too hard for Spawning, if you ask me. Automatic is too easy.

Why not just say its a straight up 2+ roll (or a straight Initiative check), with a -1 penalty if enemy are within 30cm? So, the enemy is rewarded twice for being in Assault range at the start of the next turn...they make it harder to Spawn, and if you are successful, they deny you the 1d3 bonus.

I mean, its not as if its adding a new special rule...its just modifying the one we have.

I propose this:

Spawning requires an Initiative Check off the units base value. The only modifier is a -1 penalty if any enemy are within 30cm of the Swarm. Success allows the Synapse Creature to generate as many Spawning Points as their Synapse(x) value, used to buy back Brood Creatures as per their Brood(x) cost. If no enemy are within 30cm, d3 extra Spawning points are generated. If the Swarm is within 15cm of a Hive Nest, d3 extra Spawning points are generated.

At that point, there is not even a need to much around with Synapse(x) or Brood(x). I think it would work fine as is.

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Kagetora

Post subject: [Pre-release 8.5] Spawning

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 12:48 am

Brood Brother

Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:45 pm
Posts: 85

BTW, Markconz...

I don't particularly think that there is anything wrong with your ruleset for Instinctive/Broken units, but bear in mind, its vastly more powerful than the current one. The simple fact that 'Nids never suffer in any way from BM's in an assault pumps them up quite a bit. I also am not keen on the fact that Tyranid formations can actually be fully Broken. That really doesn't seem very fluffy.

Also, I believe the complaint about the current Instinctive rules was that they were confusing. It took me less than 30 seconds to explain them to my last 2 opponents, and that was that. I really don't think thats a valid complaint.

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