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Synapse Group question for the 8.4 file

 Post subject: Synapse Group question for the 8.4 file
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 12:20 am 
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Well, I've read the file numerous times now, and I'm a bit confused.   :confuse:

In previous editions of the Tyranid list, it was spelled out fairly clearly that you bought Synapse Groups, Independents, and Broods.

At the start of the game, you were allowed to organize your Swarms.  From 1-3 Synapse choices could be combined, then you could assign any Broods to them that you felt like.

So, for example, I could buy 3 Hive Tyrants and 9 Carnifex, and form a Swarm with them.  3 Synapse choices and then the Broods.

In the new ruleset, however, I see no mention whatsoever of combining Synapse Groups.

In fact, when reading it, it seems to imply that each Synapse Group (section 1.1.1 under Tyranid Swarms, third paragraph down) exists as a seperate entity and nothing else.  Later, in the Army List, there is a section for Synapse Groups, where you buy them for their given points value.  Each is listed as a seperate Synapse Group.

Thus, the implication is that you can no longer combine Synapse Groups when forming a Swarm.  Each Synapse Group must have its own Swarm.

Is this the actual intention, or is it simply an oversight and/or bad wording, and it is still possible to combine Synapse Groups in a Swarm?

If it is an oversight, you may want to seriously re-word parts of the document to make that clear.  Synapse Group seems to be used in a very generic way throughout the ruleset.  You might want to add something along the lines of:

"At the start of the game, the Tyranid player combines Synapse Groups he purchased into Synapse Swarms.  Each Synapse Swarm may consist of 1-3 choices from the Synapse Group table in the Army List.  They Tyranid Player then assigns Brood Groups to his Synapse Swarms to form his Formations, simply called Swarms.  [blah blah blah continue with how they must be set up in legal formations and remain in coherency, etc.]"

Then, change any future uses of Synapse Group to Synapse Swarm.  Or something similar.

If it isn't an oversight, and the intention is that you can no longer combine Synapse choices in a Swarm, can someone tell me what the use is of taking a single Hive Tyrant and trying to form up a Swarm around it to protect it?  Talk about crazy fragile...in order to survive, you'd need a ton of other AV's around it, and you better pray your opponent has no access to Snipers...   :p


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 Post subject: Synapse Group question for the 8.4 file
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 12:29 am 
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If it isn't an oversight, and the intention is that you can no longer combine Synapse choices in a Swarm, can someone tell me what the use is of taking a single Hive Tyrant and trying to form up a Swarm around it to protect it?  Talk about crazy fragile...in order to survive, you'd need a ton of other AV's around it, and you better pray your opponent has no access to Snipers...   :p


It's not an oversight, and this remains a problem. :)

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 Post subject: Synapse Group question for the 8.4 file
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 2:45 am 
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Super. ? ???

I ask things like this because I am about to start an Epic Map Campaign, and the group I am playing with think the 7.1 file from the SG website is overpowered. ?I tend to agree with them...it is a bit on the heinous side.

So, they would like me to use the file here. ?But the deeper I dig into it, the less I like it.

--'Nids can be "broken," i.e. go Instinctive, and suffer from BM's.
--Every Bio-Titan lost some DC and/or Regen ability.
--AA ability is garbage
--Termagaunts and Gargoyles became more expensive
--Nearly everything has had its Brood(X) rating increased
--All Synapse creatures have lost Spawn points, and now require a roll to even get anything. ?A very difficult roll if they happen to be Instinctive at the time.
--Synapse now apparently cannot be combined.
--Several units have had their attacks nerfed (anything with a Flame template, basically)

For all of those losses, I seem to have recieved:
--+1 to Activate if I Engage or March

???

I'm thinking that there might be some serious flaws in this list, and that I am about to get my ass handed to me several times in this campaign. ? :glare:

I'm wondering if the 'Nids needed quite this much toning down, to be honest. ?Several things needed changing (Teleporting Hive Nodes, BM's should affect Nids in some way, since they are integral to the game, Bio-Titan Regen was out of hand, and apparently a typo), but this has gotten to be a touch crazy.

Well, at least I'll still be playing the 'Nids. ? :) ? I added it up today, I have about 8500 points worth I could field as a single entity. ? :p

Anyone care to share some strategy tips? ?I have a feeling I am going to need them. ?It would appear, at the very least, that my Hive Tyrants and probably my Carnifex, Malefactors, etc. are going to be collecting dust...I'm just not willing to buy a bunch of AV's that all vanish when their single leader goes pop. ?Putting them in with a WE-class Synapse creature does me no good (people simply pick a target), and the same goes for mixed AV/Inf broods. ?Pick a target.


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 Post subject: Synapse Group question for the 8.4 file
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 3:21 am 
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In what lists were you able to combine synapses?  I haven't seen that in a while.

You're not the only one who's found the special rules confusing.  They've changed quite a bit in the last four renditions.  A lot of work has gone into clarifying them, but there's still more work to be done.

However, the reasons for the downgrades was because it was an over powered list. So making the argument that all these things got dropped and you got nothing back doesn't really fly :-P.

If you'd like to help with the development though, jump on in. Have you seen this set of rules?

http://www.tacticalwargames.net/cgi-bin....t=10598

Do you find them any less confusing?

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 Post subject: Synapse Group question for the 8.4 file
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 3:38 am 
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(Dave @ Oct. 27 2007,03:21)
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In what lists were you able to combine synapses? ?I haven't seen that in a while.

You're not the only one who's found the special rules confusing. ?They've changed quite a bit in the last four renditions. ?A lot of work has gone into clarifying them, but there's still more work to be done.

However, the reasons for the downgrades was because it was an over powered list. So making the argument that all these things got dropped and you got nothing back doesn't really fly :-P.

If you'd like to help with the development though, jump on in. Have you seen this set of rules?

http://www.tacticalwargames.net/cgi-bin....t=10598

Do you find them any less confusing?

Yep.  I have those printed out as well, but won't be using them in the campaign.

Honestly, the Special Rules aren't confusing in the least.  I was just a little shocked to realize I couldn't combine Synapse Groups anymore.

I mean, come on...a Swarm is supposed to represent what amounts to a 40k army.  Even a 40k army can have TWO Tyrants in it, not to mention 3 Broods of Warriors and Zoanthropes for Synapse as well.

It seems downright silly to restrict an Epic Swarm to a single Tyrant.  Especially considering the insanely fragile nature of any Swarm it would be leading.

Basically you have to completely surround the poor thing with AV's...INF obviously does you no good, and neither do WE's, as they can all be targetted seperately.  Not to mention Snipers.  Lose the Tyrant, pick up everything else unless you can make an emergency rush over there with something else.   :O

I'm also not sold on mixed broods.  Way too many enemy units have combined AP/AV firepower that will just ruin a formation unless it becomes stupidly large.  Going with an all-AV or all-INF is an almost necessary way of protecting swarms (by limiting enemy firepower against them).  You can shoot Hormagaunts with Lascannons all day, they don't care.  Same goes for shooting Carnifex with Heavy Bolters.

But once you combine the Swarms, you essentially double a lot of enemy units' firepower.  So, you either end up with a giant, horribly unwieldy unit (AV's to protect the lone Tyrant, INF to protect the 2 Warrior stands) that can simply be broken if assaulted, or you end up with a normal sized unit where none of the Synapse creatures have adequate protection.

And you STILL only have a single Tyrant and 2 Warriors.

Thats just plain goofy.   :p

And, for the record, I agree with you...a lot of the nerfing was required.    Particularly Bio-Titan Regen (but not the DC), Spawning needed some toning down (but, instead, got a TRIPLE nerf), and BM's needed to have some effect on 'Nids.  For a large part, I LIKE the changes.  

But I really think its gone a little far at this point.  It seems to be falling into the same pattern official GW publications do...one edition, a unit will be the end-all and be-all, the next edition, it becomes crap.  Third time around, it goes back to uber.

Anyway, I just pointing some things out for consideration in the next Revision.   :;):


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 Post subject: Synapse Group question for the 8.4 file
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 3:39 am 
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(Kagetora @ Oct. 27 2007,00:20)
QUOTE
If it isn't an oversight, and the intention is that you can no longer combine Synapse choices in a Swarm

Actually, you haven't been able to combine Synapse Groups for quite some time, so it's not an oversight, but intentional.
, can someone tell me what the use is of taking a single Hive Tyrant and trying to form up a Swarm around it to protect it? ?Talk about crazy fragile...in order to survive, you'd need a ton of other AV's around it, and you better pray your opponent has no access to Snipers... ? :p

Cheap Synapse... and since there are currently no AT sniper weapons, there's no way to easily pick him out of a big crowd of Carnifex and Malefactors.

A lone Hive Tyrant should probably be the rarest form of Synapse anyway... leading an Arty group or a Carnifex swarm... combined swarms, led by a Nexus Group should be much more common and useful.

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 Post subject: Synapse Group question for the 8.4 file
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 3:50 am 
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(Kagetora @ Oct. 27 2007,02:45)
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I ask things like this because I am about to start an Epic Map Campaign, and the group I am playing with think the 7.1 file from the SG website is overpowered. ?I tend to agree with them...it is a bit on the heinous side.

First off, using an experimental army list in a campaign is going to be a potential problem from the get-go, as it's not done, balanced, or clear of... well, bugs!

Second, using Tyranids is even more problematic, as, depending if they were defending, early stage attackers, well fed, etc, they are going to be radically different armies.

This current list is just the offensive edge of a late stage Tyranid invasion and isn't representative of the forces that would make the initial attacks nor those that would be defending hives and capillary towers, so there are going to be "logical" oddities trying to use this list as an "all-around" representation of Tyranids... it's not what the list does.

There are Tyranid "early stage" armies and defensive options for scenarios in the works, but the main focus has been on the Phase IV list.

Anyone care to share some strategy tips? ?I have a feeling I am going to need them.

I would highly recommend looking at some of the armies used in the various battle reports here.

You'll notice that there are a *lot* of mixed formations... in fact, Tyranids tend to work best as mixed!  The AVs provide mobile cover for the INF for one thing!  Don't worry about losing your Synapse creatures, because, honestly, it's going to happen regardless... they are the primary target of your enemy.  Your Tyranid Warriors are much more vulnerable to sniper than Hive Tyrants anyway!

I'd really recommend trying to play some smaller games, just to get a feel for the units and abilities before jumping them into a campaign.

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 Post subject: Synapse Group question for the 8.4 file
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:26 am 
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I appreciate the reply.   :)   At least I know where the issue stands at this point.

And don't worry too much about the campaign...its a generic map campaign with about 8 players, lots of different armies, and the main goal is to get together and play Epic.  Not necessarily to be overly concerned with specifics like which phase of an invasion is taking place.  Everyone simply starts off at a hex on the map, moves one hex per turn with their army, and tries to gather up territory.  Simple stuff.  If a territory is neutral/unowned, you get a random opponent and they can use any army they own to defend it.  If the territory is owned by someone, then they have to defend it with their Primary Army (which for me, in this instance, will be the 'Nids...I also have 10k of Eldar, 4k of Feral Orks, and Marines, Chaos, and Titan Legions waiting in the wings).  Everyone is an experienced gamer (probably averaging about 15 years of WFB, WH40K, Epic, and various other games experience each).  Should be a lot of fun.

I'm just pointing out flaws I percieve in my chosen list.   :;):   I happen to have the least experience with the 'Nids, and the 8.4 army list was somewhat of a surprise to me, as I don't frequent these boards a lot.  Even when I do, its usually the Trading section.

We are, after all, up to version 8.4.  Shouldn't it be essentially ready for some prime-time action right now, even if it isn't a final FINAL version?

Good catch on the Sniper not being AT.  Wasn't even thinking along those lines.  I guess not even the Tau player will have AT Snipers.  Yes, we have a Tau player as well.   :D   Going hog wild with the Experimental Lists, I guess...

However, I still think it would be nice to have multiple Tyrants in a Swarm.

I would suggest adding another Synapse Group.  2 Tyrants for 225 points, the 25 extra points being from the fact thet 2 heads are better than one.   :p

And, for the love of the Gods...give the poor Bio-Titans back some DC.  I'm sick to death of the fact that a single 100-point IG vehicle can kill one in a single shot.  And, yes, I think Deathstrikes are overpowered.

Lastly, better AA.  I really liked the idea I read in another thread about the "Dangerous Terrain" check for enemy flyers...just enough to scare them a bit, not enough to really be bad.  Think about it...your opponent bring 6 Ork Fighta-bommas, and launches them all on turn 1.  1 dies.  The others rip though the pathetic AA fire (Dominatrix, really, is about it, if you remove Gargoyles from the list and say the Mieotic Spores are whats causing the Dangerous Terrain Test) and do their attack.

Next turn, assuming they activate, they might lose another plane.  Third turn, they might lose one more.  Maybe.  No guarantee they will.  And the game could very well end right there.

That hardly seems overwhelming.  It just gets a bit worse the more Aircraft you buy.  Nothing wrong with that.

If it were me, I'd give the larger Bio-Titans (Dom, Vitup, Hiero/Hydra) the 30cm AA5+ shot, and make Mieotic Spores cause the Dangerous test.  No other AA.  So, if you bring a couple Titans, you have some chances to put some BM's on the Aircraft, and you hope that your opponent rolls lots of 1's.

Seems VERY cool and very fluffy.  Just like 2 Hive Tyrants leading nearly every 40k Army in existence.   :D


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 Post subject: Synapse Group question for the 8.4 file
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:36 am 
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(Kagetora @ Oct. 27 2007,04:26)
QUOTE
Lastly, better AA.  I really liked the idea I read in another thread about the "Dangerous Terrain" check for enemy flyers...just enough to scare them a bit, not enough to really be bad.  Think about it...your opponent bring 6 Ork Fighta-bommas, and launches them all on turn 1.  1 dies.  The others rip though the pathetic AA fire (Dominatrix, really, is about it, if you remove Gargoyles from the list and say the Mieotic Spores are whats causing the Dangerous Terrain Test) and do their attack.

Next turn, assuming they activate, they might lose another plane.  Third turn, they might lose one more.  Maybe.  No guarantee they will.  And the game could very well end right there.

That hardly seems overwhelming.  It just gets a bit worse the more Aircraft you buy.  Nothing wrong with that.

If it were me, I'd give the larger Bio-Titans (Dom, Vitup, Hiero/Hydra) the 30cm AA5+ shot, and make Mieotic Spores cause the Dangerous test.  No other AA.  So, if you bring a couple Titans, you have some chances to put some BM's on the Aircraft, and you hope that your opponent rolls lots of 1's.

It does a lot more than scare aircraft. It's a 50% chance of an automatic casualty on a 3 strong flight. Armour means nothing. It costs no points and scales weirdly, effectively the more aircraft the enemy brings the more AA ability you get for free. There's no way for the enemy to target it with ground forces or to get around it with skill somehow. It just kills things automatically.

I liked the idea initially but playtest results were not encouraging and my opponents hated it.

Also just giving it to static spore mines leaves the normal attacking swarms with no air cover but lets you defend your artillery. Attacking is what bugs are all about and the  forward swarms shouldn't be neglected.


Regarding Synapse - yes a single tyrant is vulnerable (and this has just been tweaked to improve the situation by the way - the Armour is better now), but then again a single tyrant doesn't cost much - so you can't expect too much.  If you want greater resilience spend the points for a nexus or another backup tyrant (ie two swarms with one ready to take over if the first one gets hit).


I also agree that this list has been in development for a very long time and it's definitely time to stop playing around with it so much. I'd like to see some minor cleaning up and then leave it so playtesting results can accumulate without it being changed all the time. I'd really like to see the overly complicated 8.4 instinctive and spawning rules ditched outright, in favour of the simpler proposals that achieve a very similar effect but without all the oddities (which there have been a large number of complaints about).  Apart from that I don't think there is good evidence that anything needs much adjustment beyond adjusting bio-titan weapons a bit, lictors, and perhaps a few very minor tweaks. Then let a decent amount of feedback accumulate.

And I'd agree deathstrikes are overpowered (even with mods)...  :;):

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 Post subject: Synapse Group question for the 8.4 file
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:05 am 
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(Hena @ Oct. 27 2007,06:19)
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...when I want my fix of Tyranids again, I'm facing situation where I might just do my own list and ignore most of the bad ideas that there currently is.

Yes well why don't you go this? Maybe many of your ideas are actually the silly and stupid ones and not other peoples as you seem to have no hesitation in labelling them. Then again maybe you have some good points. Until you come up with a list which incorporates all your numerous propositions we will never know. I would be keen to see exactly what you come up with if you had free reign on development.

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