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Tyranid Units
Markconz
 Post subject: Tyranid Units
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 2:45 pm 
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In addition to the special rule mods I proposed here
I think the following changes should be made:

Hive Tyrants:
Problem: Too vulnerable to being accidentally popped off, which is particularly catastropic for tyranids. The general weakening of bugs has gone to far in this case. Considerably weaker and more vulnerable than any other synapse option, and problematically so.
Change: 3+ armour to 4+ RA, no other change.

Dactylis:
Problem: Too good at what they do for tyranids. Can't be suppressed, spawn back, 90cm range and disrupt all adds up to artillery that is as good or better than any arty in the game. It doesn't feel right, and it is a heck of a lot of power in a small number of bug units.
Change: Shift to Independent. 3 for 250 points. An alternative would be to reduce range, but I think the same range but halving the power by preventing minmaxing of 4 strong dactylis swarms would suit the armies style of play and feel better.

Termagaunts and Hormis:
Problem: Die easily and add lots of blast markers which means tyranids slow down in attacks rather quickly. Doesn't suit the 'endless hordes of expendable gaunts' character that tyranids are supposed to be renowned for.
Change: Worth testing with disposable I think.

Bio-Titans:
Problem - Weapon options problematic in that they are too limited and don't make good tactical sense.
Change - Same as orks eldar etc, give a limited choice. Two of guns/claws. To account for present models, and any future forge world releases.
Bioplasma Breath: - MW ranged attack over the top? AP4+/AT5+ Ignore Cover may be more characterful and provide more tactical options (eg for removing fortified infantry which can be problematic for bug titans).

Zoanthrope:
Make 15cm MW attack a ranged attack as well as a FF attack. Reason - why not?

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Chroma
 Post subject: Tyranid Units
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:36 pm 
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(Markconz @ Sep. 22 2007,14:45)
QUOTE

Hive Tyrants:[/u]
Problem: Too vulnerable to being accidentally popped off, which is particularly catastropic for tyranids. The general weakening of bugs has gone to far in this case. Considerably weaker and more vulnerable than any other synapse option, and problematically so.
Change: 3+ armour to 4+ RA, no other change.
[/u]

Already done in the next version.
Dactylis:

Range reduced to 30cm in next release.

Termagaunts and Hormis:
Change: Worth testing with disposable I think.Definitely want to see disposable tested for Gaunts.

Bio-Titans:
Change - Same as orks eldar etc, give a limited choice. Two of guns/claws. To account for present models, and any future forge world releases.
"Mutable" Bio-Titans are still on the backburner, but I've been thinking about them again recently, but no changes are currently in the works.

Zoanthrope:
Make 15cm MW attack a ranged attack as well as a FF attack. Reason - why not?
This represents the two different "firing modes" of the Zoanthrope and keeps MW shooting down as well.

Thanks for the input Markconz!

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Dave
 Post subject: Tyranid Units
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:46 pm 
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Whatever happened to the Tyrant Guard?  Adding them to a Tyrant Synapse ground would give the boss some AV meat shields.

I haven't used the Dactylis, I'd say bump their cost though if they're too good.  I think the stats suit it well.

I still think disposable would make breaking/instinctiveizing swarms impossible.

I like the bio-titan suggestions, and second it.

The Zoanthrope I think is fine as it stands (floats?) now.




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Chroma
 Post subject: Tyranid Units
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 4:12 pm 
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(Dave @ Sep. 22 2007,15:46)
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I still think disposable would make breaking/instinctiveizing swarms impossible.

Just remember that disposable only applies to losses from shooting attacks, not from units lost in assaults.

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woodelf_dave
 Post subject: Tyranid Units
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 4:12 pm 
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Have to agee with making the Hive tyrant 4+ RA - they were certainly too vulnerable before.

Our group had thought of moving the artillery to independant - Dactylis, Exocrine and (possibly) Biovores.
The Hive Mind would be unlikely to need synapse creatures to pass on complex instructions. They would be bred to simply sit there and fire.

We certainly think Disposable should be used on Termagants, Hormagaunts and possibly Gargoyles. It seems the rule would be created for how the Hive Mind would treat these creatures.  While making it much harder to break swarms by shooting you could still break them in assault.

Another look at the Bio-tians may be beneficial. Our Nid player doesn`t rate them.

We need to make sure we spell out that spawn enhancers are not models.

We would also like to see some form of "spore drop pod" as an alternative way of deploying some Nid troops. More variation in style of play.

And our Nid player would still prefer an alternative AA system if possible.
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Chroma
 Post subject: Tyranid Units
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:53 pm 
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(Dave @ Sep. 22 2007,15:46)
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Whatever happened to the Tyrant Guard? ?Adding them to a Tyrant Synapse ground would give the boss some AV meat shields.

Carnifex make an excellent "stand-in" for Tyrant Guard in this list: big mean armoured vehicles to protect the Tyrant.

I don't think Epic needs a "Look our, sir!" rule to protect the Tyrant... *laugh*

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Tyranid Units
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:48 pm 
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I wouldn't be too set against Tyrant guards, but there's no model, which makes it hard to justify.

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Tyranid Units
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:44 am 
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I'm using the E40k Hive Tyrants for Tyrant Guard and the SM2 Hive Tyrant for the "Hive Tyrant". The E40k are a little smaller ... :alien:

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Markconz
 Post subject: Tyranid Units
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 7:07 am 
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(Chroma @ Sep. 22 2007,21:53)
QUOTE

(Dave @ Sep. 22 2007,15:46)
QUOTE
Whatever happened to the Tyrant Guard?  Adding them to a Tyrant Synapse ground would give the boss some AV meat shields.

Carnifex make an excellent "stand-in" for Tyrant Guard in this list: big mean armoured vehicles to protect the Tyrant.

Also as has been discussed several times before if you run the numbers a stand of 2-3 tyrant guard would be equivalent in stats to a carnifex anyway... so it is kind of pointless to add the details.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Tyranid Units
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 1:58 pm 
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I would say the effect of having a nearby Tyranid (Guard or other) jump interposing itself in front of Tyrant is part of the armor save.

At least, I can't think of any other way to easily justify 4+RA.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Tyranid Units
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 2:02 pm 
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I agree with Neal, a good way to represent that 4+ RA would be to have some Tyrant Guard on the same base.

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Markconz
 Post subject: Tyranid Units
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 2:10 pm 
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Well in any straight terms of relative 40k/epic power Hive Tyrants and Carnis should be at least 4+RA anyway. The decision was just made to downgrade them to increase the horde feel of the epic army, which is fair enough for Carnis (especially given the elite slot fex options in the new dex), but not for the more vital Tyrants in the synapse role from the point of view of game balance.

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Soren
 Post subject: Tyranid Units
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 2:23 pm 
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Tyrants don?t die when hit by a Multimelta or similar weapon. (at least not instantly :;): ) So I think 4+ RA is really an option for them. Makes them to the tought guys they should be. You are paying at least 100pts for a Tyrant and it has no save against MW? I would suggest, give it a try.




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Markconz
 Post subject: Tyranid Units
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 6:41 am 
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Lictors - I've been holding off on commenting on these, but I've made up my mind on these too now. Their stats are just wrong. They shouldn't be a first-striking carnifex(!), by either the background, or 40k rules, or from the point of game balance in Epic. It's just not fun having that much resting on a single coin toss of the Strategy Roll.

Proposals:
Lose extra attack, and just 1 Attack MW3+, or lose MW and attacks down to 2x4+ like genestealers (who they really share far more in common with than with Carnis - they are a modified tyranid warrior, not a monstrous creatures!). In 40k a typical full marine tactical squad would beat down a lictor in close combat without blinking. Lictors have their effect from the disruption and confusion they cause, as much as by the killing things.

At the same time increase armour in some way, either add RA, or increase level. Lictors are supposed to be difficult to target due to their cameleon like abilties. 5+ and inv does not convey this.

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