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Instinctive Vs Disposable
woodelf_dave
 Post subject: Instinctive Vs Disposable
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 8:01 pm 
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Just thought I`d move this discusion over to the Tyranid forum where it belongs.

Basically after a batrep between Saim Hann and the Nids our gaming group had a number of queries / suggestions regarding both lists.  As for the Tyranids, Hena has greatly helped out by explaining away the majority of them.

The remaining bone of contention is the Instinctive rule.
Our desire is to see special rules produced in a short concise form and that are easy to understand and are intuitive to the game system so it is easy for new players to pick up. You can see these in the Ork, Marines & IG lists and even in the numerous Eldar special rules eg Lance negates RA, Pulse gives potentially 3 shots etc - short, simple and only slightly affecting the core rules.

The Tyranids with their unique feel and approach make this goal very difficult to achieve. Hena has done superbly in getting the Synapse & Spawning rules to be really clear (and probably as short as possible).
However our gaming group often struggled with the instinctive rule.  Makes swarms like they are broken but not quite, having to roll for a hold action, failing and then taking a hold (to check for retain) etc.  While it does capture the feel of the Tyranids we thought a simpler mechanism would be

Tyranids take BMs as normal and are broken as normal (hive mind temporarily loses control). However

Tyranids auto rally in end phase and all BMs removed.
All common brood creatures are disposable.

We felt this was more concise and much easier and straightforward to understand.  

You would struggle to hold back the tide of the Nids as no BMs would be placed for the common broods and casualties would be respawned in the end phase as normal. However in combat the brood creatures would count as casualties and so it would be possible (if difficult) to win in an assasult.

However if anyone can think of difficulties with this system that would make it more complicated or difficult to work then let me know and I`ll happily stop giving Hena a hard time!
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Dave
 Post subject: Instinctive Vs Disposable
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 11:33 pm 
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While I'm all for simplification of instinctive and relentless I'm confused as to how the swarm would accrue many BMs if the brood creatures were disposable?

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Reaver
 Post subject: Instinctive Vs Disposable
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:02 am 
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I've personally never been happy with the Tyranid list - I think any list that can't be used in a beginner's game is too complex. But I also appreciate the huge amounts of work that people have put in to get the list this far.

I keep coming back to the idea of a nice, simple list, with Synapse just being Leader, Fearless, and with all Tyranid formations having ATSKNF, and maybe even lose Spawning. Sure, it would mean a total list re-write, and for the many who invested so much time and effort into the Nids, it would be difficult / impossible to accept, but I do think that a new player, picking up the current list for the first time, would have real problems understanding it. After all, we get confused by it, and we've had years to get used to it!

Anyway, I don't want to upset anyone - as I said, all the hard work is appreciated - but I just needed to express my concern.

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Markconz
 Post subject: Instinctive Vs Disposable
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:13 am 
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Well I expressed similar opinions here...
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/cgi-bin....d217708

...of a 'broken  - BUT' approach being the way foward.

The current rules work and seem reasonably balanced, but they are rather inelegant and clunky I think (hence the attempt so far here to clean it up a bit). A different more intuitive system that achieves similar results would be good, though I haven't thought through the implications or possibilities of disposable or other yet.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Instinctive Vs Disposable
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 12:08 pm 
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I'm very interested in the 'disposable' proposal; It's so much more elegant!

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woodelf_dave
 Post subject: Instinctive Vs Disposable
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 5:16 pm 
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Hi Hena,

Common Brood swarms would in general generate less BMs. they would be harder to break with firing. However they would accumulate few BMs from open fire. That would probably give enemy +1 for having less BMs that opponent as Tyranids have very few long range weapons. Also what little weapons Tyranids have would be suppressed and thus pratcically common brood swarms wouldn't be able to fire anymore.

Uncommon and Independent swarms. These would now suffer fully from suppression. This means that there would be even less firing and +1 to enemy for Tyranids having more BMs.


Although the Tyranids would auto rally in the end phase and remove all BMs so this should mean they don`t have that many BMS at all. Also with spawning back lost units they should usually outnumber the opponent as well.

Are Independant swarms not currently affected by Suppression ? I thought they were treated as normal ?
You could also play about with what brood units were disposable - adding more or taking some out.  
In fact thinking about it, would you need a common / uncommon divide.  Is this division not here just for army selection issues.  If you had some units as disposable and others not I`m sure most players would go down the disposable route anyway.

You might need to revisit the individual unit stats if disposable was adopted. However I think it is important to get the special rules in their simplest form agreed first and then look to balance the units.

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woodelf_dave
 Post subject: Instinctive Vs Disposable
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 7:55 pm 
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The spawning isn't same as having more units. Spawning has completely different effect than just larger formations. I wonder I should write down some design notes for the list


True, but a side effect will be that the Nid player can top up his units the turn before assaulting meaning he should have a better chance of outnumbering his opponent.  
That, and the fact that all the BMs are removed the turn before assault is planned should still mean the Tyranids will have more than a fair chance of winning assaults.

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woodelf_dave
 Post subject: Instinctive Vs Disposable
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 9:57 pm 
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However my main point that with current rules, it's not that easy to win against assault units of others.  And these modifiers would make it even more harder. Now assault is the weapon of Tyranids. It's what Tyranids use to make most damage to opponent. If it's made too hard ... You pointed out in your own report that Tyranids got to assault only once on their own terms, And that they get beaten often in assaults as well. So I'd really like to see a balance reason to downgrade it even further. If it wouldn't downgrade it this would be a lot easier.


In my battle report the Tyranid player only ininiated  combat twice winning once and only losing the other by a fluke of the resolution dice. He mistakenly (IMO) chose to shoot rather than assault on occasions.  
He lost assaults I was able to initiate assaults on my terms using the Eldars ability to gang up three units against one isolated Nids swarm - not a typical occurence in most games.
I`m not convinced changing to disposable harms the Nids assault chances at all. If it proved it did you could no doubt easily up the stats of the Nid units to compensate.  As I said earlier once the special rules are in place then that is the best time to firm up on unit stats.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Instinctive Vs Disposable
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 9:47 pm 
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I notice Chroma hasn't commented here yet.

I think this proposal could be... fantastic.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Instinctive Vs Disposable
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 1:05 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Sep. 10 2007,21:47)
QUOTE
I notice Chroma hasn't commented here yet.

I think this proposal could be... fantastic.

I'm working my way through it... might try to get a game in this week using it.

The question is, where do you draw the line?  I don't think *all* Brood creatures can be disposable, but Common ones could be, at least for shooting.

The ideas are bubbling!  *laugh*

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Chroma
 Post subject: Instinctive Vs Disposable
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 1:58 pm 
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(Hena @ Sep. 11 2007,13:42)
QUOTE
You do realise that this ends shooting by most brood swarms.

That's why I'm thinking it through before commenting... *laugh*

It's *another* radical change, on the heels of a radical change, so I'm, for once, moving more slowly on it.

Disposable is an interesting idea, and I wish it *had* been introduced in the "core rules" originally.

I'm still not keen on Tyranid swarms breaking... I *do* want them to be different from other armies in regard to "morale effects".

One thing I have been thinking about is that instinctive swarms may only take Engage or Hold actions, but that's a different discussion I'll bring up later.

More to come.

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