Tactical Command
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quick 8.3 question on Instinctive
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=10289		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  alansa [ Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:17 pm ]
Post subject:  quick 8.3 question on Instinctive
Hi, just a quick question on the Instinctive rule.

It says that formations that have gone instinctive may "lend support to assaults, accumulate Blast markers and attempt spawning"

does "accumulate blast markers" mean a unit is removed for each BM, as is the case for non tyranid armies?
Author:  Chroma [ Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:24 pm ]
Post subject:  quick 8.3 question on Instinctive

(alansa @ Aug. 14 2007,13:17)
QUOTE
does "accumulate blast markers" mean a unit is removed for each BM, as is the case for non tyranid armies?

It means that, after a swarm has gone "instinctive" it has no Blast markers (since they are removed when the swarm goes "instinctive"), but shooting at it again *will* place a Blast marker on it... so it'll be at a disadvantage if assaulted as well as have trouble activating later in the turn if it needs to.

That bit of the Instinctive rule may be removed in a future version as it's causing some confusion. ?Just a thing to remember is that an "instinctive" swarm is *not* broken, it's just confused and less effective, but still dangerous; unlike a broken formation.
Author:  alansa [ Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:31 pm ]
Post subject:  quick 8.3 question on Instinctive
ok - so Broken means (among other things) "has as many blast markers as units"

so Instictive can also mean "has as many blast markers as units"

thus the instictive swarm doesn't get the +1 for "no blast markers' in the assault resolution.

As far as activation surely it can only Hold. It doesn't need to make an activation test (since if it fails it goes on Hold)
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:31 pm ]
Post subject:  quick 8.3 question on Instinctive
I still think that a better version of the rule would be:

- Any formation that accumulates as many blast markers as units becomes Instinctive.

- Formations may accumulate infinite ammounts of blast markers.

- Formations must marshall / rally like any other army to remove blast markers, rather than having several auto-removal rules.

- Probably give Leader to Synapse creatures (Maybe giving bigger creatures Leader(X), like Leader(2) for a Tyrant, implying that it removes 2 BM's rather than 1 as normal).

It's more elegant, no?
Author:  Chroma [ Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:19 pm ]
Post subject:  quick 8.3 question on Instinctive

(alansa @ Aug. 14 2007,13:31)
QUOTE
thus the instictive swarm doesn't get the +1 for "no blast markers' in the assault resolution.

Actually, that "+1 for 'no blast markers'" on Instinctive swarms was intentional; creatures that lose their connection to the Hive Mind tend to hunker down/lurk in a defensive manner until reconnected, I felt that this was a good way to reflect that response.

As far as activation surely it can only Hold. It doesn't need to make an activation test (since if it fails it goes on Hold)
You're correct that it can "only Hold", but if you fail the activation test you cannot retain with another formation if you so desired, so it can have an effect, regardless of the same order, Hold, being used.
Author:  alansa [ Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:28 pm ]
Post subject:  quick 8.3 question on Instinctive
Actually, that "+1 for 'no blast markers'" on Instinctive swarms was intentional; creatures that lose their connection to the Hive Mind tend to hunker down/lurk in a defensive manner until reconnected, I felt that this was a good way to reflect that response

ahhh, and then it will lose the +1 again when it receives further blast markers.
Author:  alansa [ Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:31 pm ]
Post subject:  quick 8.3 question on Instinctive
You're correct that it can "only Hold", but if you fail the activation test you cannot retain with another formation if you so desired, so it can have an effect, regardless of the same order, Hold, being used.

hmmm so you have to make the die role (and apply the -2 mod) only to see if you get to retain the initiative. A bit fiddly for little effect isn't it?
Author:  Chroma [ Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:43 pm ]
Post subject:  quick 8.3 question on Instinctive

(alansa @ Aug. 14 2007,14:31)
QUOTE
hmmm so you have to make the die role (and apply the -2 mod) only to see if you get to retain the initiative. A bit fiddly for little effect isn't it?

Technically, you're also trying to avoid that "extra" Blast marker as the swarm becomes even *more* confused if you fail the activation... *laugh*
Author:  alansa [ Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:46 pm ]
Post subject:  quick 8.3 question on Instinctive
ok right. Seems to me you only need one blast marker after you've become Instinctive, as any others are redundant.
Author:  alansa [ Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:42 pm ]
Post subject:  quick 8.3 question on Instinctive

(Hena @ Aug. 14 2007,18:05)
QUOTE
I still believe it would be easier if they weren't removed and instinctive would be counted as having BMs like broken formations.

This could be taken to use with the changing of the Nodes :;):.

Yeah, you might say that Instinctive was Broken, but for 'nids'

A kind of cut down version of Broken
Author:  Chroma [ Wed Aug 15, 2007 2:12 pm ]
Post subject:  quick 8.3 question on Instinctive

(alansa @ Aug. 15 2007,13:42)
QUOTE
Yeah, you might say that Instinctive was Broken, but for 'nids'

A kind of cut down version of Broken

The thing is, if it's just a "cut down" version of "Broken", then why not just use the existing rules?

I feel the Tyranid "option" needs to be distinct and different from "normal" armies.  The whole "Tyranids get BMs" is still so new, there are lots of kinks that need to be worked out yet, but I do think it's better than the "No BMs" of the past.

We just need more... PLAYTESTS!   :D
Author:  alansa [ Wed Aug 15, 2007 2:51 pm ]
Post subject:  quick 8.3 question on Instinctive

(Chroma @ Aug. 15 2007,14:12)
QUOTE
The thing is, if it's just a "cut down" version of "Broken", then why not just use the existing rules?

because the original rules aren't cut down!

a nid version of broken fits in nicely with the slot occupied by normal broken.

let's do a comparison of normal broken and potential nid cut down version of broken (instinctive).

                                            Broken         Instinctive
-1 for bms                               yes                 yes
-1 for more bms                      yes                 no
lose units for further bms       yes                 no
activation                               may not        hold only 1 2
rally                                        must roll       automatic 3
wiped out if lose asssault       yes                 yes 4
may hold/contest objectives    no                  no 5
provide support in assaults     no                  yes

1 regroup is presumable not allowed

2 further bms for failed activation are irrelavent
    the only only effect of failed activation is may not
    hold initiative. Might as well have done and dispense
   with the initiative test and say for insitinctive hold- only-and-may-not-retain-initiative

3 all bms cleared / no bms placed

4 nothing says otherwise so I guess yes

5 or prevent TSNP

I think this gives what you're looking for removes any 'bittyness' and slots in smoothley into the architecture of the game, rather than being an additional bit bolted on

as you say though, whether would be better in balance terms could only be shown by playtesting
Author:  alansa [ Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:10 pm ]
Post subject:  quick 8.3 question on Instinctive

(Hena @ Aug. 15 2007,14:57)
QUOTE
For 4 for instictive it's no. As they aren't broken as such.

ah ok right yeah - they aren't going to rout.

but a non insticitve nid formation does suffer hackdown hits when it loses an assault.

I've always taken 'hackdown' to mean

1 units chased and hacked down by assault weapons

2 units shot in the back by small arms and range weapons

3 units routing in fear and terror

sounds to me like nids would not suffer from any of these either?

or possibly it should be one unit hackdown for every 2 extra bms (a la space marines)
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