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Merge Mechanics

 Post subject: Re: Merge Mechanics
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:58 am 
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jaldon454 wrote:
There is much more at issue here then just the mere effect the opponent gains. There is also the matter of the writing of the rule and the implimentation of the rule. From my reading of the post there is no real consensus on this issue, a lot of debate, and no real clear cut agreement on it at all. My job as AC is to make tough calls, so I am making one of those tough calls. Unlike most though I am also presenting an alternative that is much simpler and easier to write as a rule, another job the AC is supposed to perform. For now merging is out the door with the bath water, the tub, and the baby.

Cheers,
Jaldon

Thanks for the replies Jaldon.

For what it's worth, I have always thought the Nids to be a single swarm with some critters slightly more capable of independant thought (or perhaps more resistant to the hive mind - WEs and other independant swarms). Also the mechanics of 'spawning' are more the means of representing other bugs that lie outside the detection or awareness of the opponent than the Nids capability of reinforcing the swarm with critters; a means to deploy units on the table rather like 'planetfalling'.

However, as you have yet to present your rules, lets accept that merging formations and passing bugs from one formation to another are no longer available options. I am also happier that we are not looking at 'forced actions'.

For 'intermingled' read 'heavily mixed up'; the allusion was to the problems of distinguishing the different component units of each formation where the units are painted identically (as under all previous incarnation of the rules it did not matter which swarm the unit was in).


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 Post subject: Re: Merge Mechanics
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:29 pm 
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Ginger wrote:

For 'intermingled' read 'heavily mixed up'; the allusion was to the problems of distinguishing the different component units of each formation where the units are painted identically (as under all previous incarnation of the rules it did not matter which swarm the unit was in).


This is a problem all armies have.

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 Post subject: Re: Merge Mechanics
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:58 pm 
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I suspect it is a greater problem with Nids than virtually any other race both because of the way they are used, their make-up / composition and the rule development history.


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 Post subject: Re: Merge Mechanics
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:30 pm 
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jaldon454 wrote:
(Merging): Gone, dropped, not to be used. The mechanics of it are going to be difficult to write, doesn't fit in the background as I have laid it out in another thread, and is not the return of enough of a reward for busting ones butt to get at the synapse creatures.

If that's your call, fine. However, I disagree strongly that merging rules would be difficult to write. I think it's about 3 sentences and a couple inevitable FAQs. Most of the discussion on here is theoretical, extrapolating some pretty exotic situations.

I also disagree it's against the background. I understand the high-handed chain of command concept you outlined and I like it. It is, of course, the defining way to defeat Nids - tear them up enough and they completely break down. However, the ebb and flow of Tyranid swarms has been a big feature as long as Nids have been around. It's been a characteristic of Epic and 40K rules as well as the fiction.

Finally, I think the option to merge creates an interesting tactical choice. Merging is a choice over which penalty to take. The uncontrolled swarm is weak and hard to control, but it is an additional activation and a formation which can spread out to cover separate ground. Merging strengthens a swarm and gets units back under control but it forfeits an activation and "destroys" a formation.

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(Instinctive Penalty):

I'm not big on prescribed actions. They are nearly impossible to write rules for.

Incentives, on the other hand, are relatively easy to work with. A combination of sufficient Initiative penalty and appropriate bonuses to the preferred "instinctive" actions will create a very strong incentive for the army to act "Nid-ish" without forcing it by other rules. For example, something like a 2+ Initiative, +2 Engage, -3 Synapse penalty means that an uncontrolled swarm will only activate on a 5+ or, more likely, 6+ if it wants to do anything except Engage. That strongly reinforces "instinctive" behavior without making it mandatory.


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 Post subject: Re: Merge Mechanics
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:51 pm 
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nealhunt wrote:
Quote:
(Instinctive Penalty):

I'm not big on prescribed actions. They are nearly impossible to write rules for.

Incentives, on the other hand, are relatively easy to work with. A combination of sufficient Initiative penalty and appropriate bonuses to the preferred "instinctive" actions will create a very strong incentive for the army to act "Nid-ish" without forcing it by other rules. For example, something like a 2+ Initiative, +2 Engage, -3 Synapse penalty means that an uncontrolled swarm will only activate on a 5+ or, more likely, 6+ if it wants to do anything except Engage. That strongly reinforces "instinctive" behavior without making it mandatory.


I'm with nealhunt on this one. The best way to enforce "characteristic" behaviour is to give initiative incentives. I always get a laugh when I teach beginners orks. They know how to gett into a good fight or to run as fast as they can while still shooting. Anything else, they have to start thinking, and that is when things go wrong.

A negative modifier for losing synapse will do, as long as there are basic initiative modifers to begin with. This will force synapse-less broods to behave according to the pre-defined Tyranid mind-set.

/Fredmans


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 Post subject: Re: Merge Mechanics
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 12:56 am 
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At present Zombocom I am thinking of presenting both the Instinctive and the Initiative Penalty rules, and because of this fine group of minds here, am thinking a third alternative that combines the two Someone gave me inspiration but I am not telling nah nah ;)

Hopefully I will be back up later gotta get some other stuff done right now.

CHeers,
Jaldon

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 Post subject: Re: Merge Mechanics
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:20 am 
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Well, of course I'm willing to wait and see what you present, but I can't say I'm in any way enthused about anything involving uncontrolled movements, or anything over complicated.


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 Post subject: Re: Merge Mechanics
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:53 am 
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These are just rough overviews on each idea I have and how they would work. Remember I am just tossing out ideas none of these are front runners to become a bonified rule yet.

(1A) Initiative Penalty: Just straight up the way you guys have been discussing it, with one notable exception; the player only choose a Normal Move, Engage, or Hold action.

(1B) Initiative Penalty: Ok the penalty is only a -1 or a -2 but failrre results in 1d6 stands going to ground, the Nid player gets to pick the stands.

(1C) Instinctive: Here the penalty is also a -1 or a -2 but failure results in the swarm going on instictive behaviour and a furhter 1d6 is rolled. 1-3 the Swarm Holds 2-5 the swarm does a normal move toward the nearest enemy formation, 6 the swarm does an engage move toward the nearest enemy formation, normal move as in 4-5 if it cannot make FF or CC contact.

(1D) Instinctive: Here there is no penalty the player simply rolls a 1d6 to see what the swarm is capable of doing when the player decides to activate it. 1-3 the swarm holds, 4 the swarm may make a normal move, 5 the swarm may make an engage move if the swarm cannot get into FF or CC range it may make a normal move, 6 the swarm holds and 1d6 Nids go to ground, the player picke the stands lost. In all cases the player decides where the swarm will move and whom the swarm will shoot at.

Again I repeat these are just ideas and I am open to suggestions on changes, or even a total rehash of what I have said. In all four cases I think the rule would be dead easy to write.

Cheers,
Jaldon

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 Post subject: Re: Merge Mechanics
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:18 am 
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I would not be too keen on anything so random table based: it has very little precedence in Epic and once again introduces a new set of special rules to remember. This far in to a lists development adding and testing something so radically different would strike me as being a lot of (unnecessary?) work.

My playtest the other day ended very quickly after some terrible tactical decisions with a new army by myself and as such I cannot yet feed back reliably on any suggested changes in play.

I have another game this Thursday that I hope will go better.

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 Post subject: Re: Merge Mechanics
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:03 am 
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(1A) looks to be the easiest to implement and start playtests without any further discussion.

I am also with MoK regarding the random possibilities - unnessesary

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 Post subject: Re: Merge Mechanics
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:21 am 
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Quote:
(1A) Initiative Penalty: Just straight up the way you guys have been discussing it, with one notable exception; the player only choose a Normal Move, Engage, or Hold action.

You mean you'd get to Engage or Advance even if you fail an initiative test?

Why can't we just have a -3 initiative rating for synapse-less formations, rather than various wacky special rules?

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 Post subject: Re: Merge Mechanics
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:12 am 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
Quote:
(1A) Initiative Penalty: Just straight up the way you guys have been discussing it, with one notable exception; the player only choose a Normal Move, Engage, or Hold action.

You mean you'd get to Engage or Advance even if you fail an initiative test?

Why can't we just have a -3 initiative rating for synapse-less formations, rather than various wacky special rules?


That seems reasonable.

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 Post subject: Re: Merge Mechanics
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 12:54 pm 
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I think Jaldon is suggesting that 'Uncontrolled' swarms get an initiative penalty and may only declare to Advance, Engage or Hold (Marshall?)

Point being that they have no controlling presence to plan (OW) or to drive them elsewhere (Double or March) so the swarm would become effectively static. It sounds Ok as an idea; it is a simple Nid special rule to cover this particular situation that already needs some words anyway.

However, shouldn't these comments be made in the C&C thread?


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 Post subject: Re: Merge Mechanics
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:10 pm 
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Ginger is correct on what I mean, the only thing needed would be to balance the penalty against the limited order selection.

Cheers,
Jaldon


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 Post subject: Re: Merge Mechanics
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:12 pm 
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One (Initiative pentalty) or the other (Instinctive behaviour), IMO, not both.

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