If a shootyfex is going in, it'd be really cool to have the malanthrope added so that just about all of the modern 'nid creatures are represented.

And I'm definately in favour of disallowing raveners in normal swarms.

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I second that  

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Isn't the Malonthrope are sort of corpse collector that lingers on a world after all resistance has been crushed? Much like Rippers it doesn't seem they should be on the battlefield in the Epic Armageddon sense.



Certainly encourage me to take Hive Tyrants instead of Warriors.

Had a 2.7K battle tonight using Chroma's suggested changes (Ravener 4+ CC, 6+ FF and gaunts rounded up. My opponent used Orks and we had some really close assaults - exciting stuff.

Again apologies if the answers are elsewhere but the current rules don't make it clear whether Nid LVs can claim cover saves from being in terrain or whether they benefit from a to hit modifier. We played it that they got the -1 to hit whilst in buildings but had to use their own armour save. The list would benefit from a sentance clarifying this I think (if indeed we played it right!).

The toned down Ravs are still pretty tasty. I'll use them again for sure.

Lightbringer

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I'm not actually sure that having variant carnifexes, hierodules, etc. all in the core list alongside all the older bio-tank models is a good idea, I'd prefer to see a Kraken/Leviathan list split, for balance.

The Kraken list would get all the bio tanks as well as Hydraphants and Vituperators, and the Levianthan list the more recent stuff like Hierodules & Carnifexes other than the Screamer-Killer.

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Then you lose out on numbers. The choice there should be like for any army on whether to get mech infantry or tanks (warriors or tyrants).

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Agreed; as a pure 'kraken' player (my nid army is made up only of E40k era nids) that makes, at least my life, life a lot simpler!
Besides...all those lovely new models next to the old ones showing off thier truescale brilliance; it's just not on!
Also gives two ways of playing nids and possibly two armies that play slightly differently too;

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I'll be interested to see what Chroma has to say but shouldn't the official Net-EA tyranid list ideally aim to be flexible enough to cater for both new and old styles of nids rather than being limited to just the old style? Otherwise we're forcing all those who want to use current style models to have to use a quite different variant list or make their own (or a frankenstein combination or the two) and splitting playtesting effort needlessly.

I'd imagine most people would use one or other of the old or new style nids, if you are using  the old style nids then does adding a shooting carnifex really hurt or affect your list in any real way?


Some may choose too but I wouldn't be happy doing this personally sorry; carnifexes should be very slow very tough beasts and the stats for the older vehicle tyranids are off for these. Plus it would be internally inconsistent and non WYSIWYG to field both close combat carnifexes and shooty carnifexes in the same army with the basic stats to be way different between the two.

I prefer the 9.2.1 list myself and would rather field a self-limited version of that rather than using Leviathan, despite planning to use new style models for my army. The way I see it shooty Carnifexes are the only other thing I'd really miss at present here compared to the Leviathan list, so I'm pleased to hear Chroma plans to add them.

Regarding the other units; while Malenthropes are nice models and concepts, they're not really an active battlefield force that really has to be represented in a tyranid army list IMO. They're like IG Atlases like that. A few of them on a base would make a cool tyranid objective though. I would like to have Tyrant Guard too then, but I'm fine with basing a couple of them on the stand with the hive tyrant and represented like that (it even makes sense of why a flying hive tyrant has less armour save). They are hive tyrant bodyguard specifically, rather than a separate unit that would go off on their own.  

What was the reason for removing them Carnifexes before? Were there balance problems with them? Or was it just a case of not wanting to have too many units available in a list or something?

It's that same arguement that effects other lists, do you comply to the wishes of those that have the models of old, or those that want something more in line with the ever changing 40K/Forgeworld money-making machine.

I think a decision needs to be made as to what is best for the Game of EpicA. Once that is decided, then all others will follow. The problem however is that you will split the community no matter what is decided. In this case, the poor AC is left with another decision in putting everything in the one list which in itself is not a great option either.

I am all for having two lists. If you are going to split the community, then best to keep them both happy rather than have half develop their own list and achieve what the AC could do anyway. As for playtests, if players are interested, they will play.

At the end of the day, it is the Bat Reps that will decide how far a list progresses with any clout.

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Quite. That's just one reason why I'd like to see an old Tyranids (Kraken) / new models (Leviathan) split.


Why shouldn't there be two Net-EA Tyranid lists?

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I'd rather see one Tyranid list done well first, to a level where it doesn't need constant tweaking before any more ambitious variant lists are formed.

Space Marines initially had one 'vanilla' list.
Orks initially had one 'vanilla' list.
IG...
Eldar...
Black Legion...

All had an initial list that was open and flexible enough to represent most armies of that particular race.

I personally have no problem with a 'combat beast' and 'shooty beast' unit profile where the player can choose to use Fex's or slugs. Your preference in models shouldn't have that huge an impact on gameplay. Many players will be using neither Fex's nor slugs, but homemade or other company models...do they need a 3rd variant list...

You can't please everyone, all the time- and some are easier to please than others, that's true. All splitting the Tyranids into two different lists does is halve the playtesting feedback on each one, double the workload of the designers, and add the fresh problem of balancing the two Nid lists against each other, and making them sufficiently different to justify having two different lists.

I think it's quite possible to create a single Tyranid list (at least initially) that is balanced and reflects a 'generic' Tyranid army with the kind of flexibility and variety of the original SM, Ork, IG lists. I think the Tyranid list right now is too complex (in number and elaboration of special rules) and too varied (in that slugs and Fex's are competing for essentially the same role, for example).

I think there is room for more than 1 list but I believe the distinction between 9.2.1 and Leviathan in terms of units present is artificial. 9.2.1 is trying to cover a general phase IV list that should encompass the force composition of Leviathan (the fleet).

1) Is 9.2.1 supposed to be a representation of Tyranid forces pre-Leviathan (ie Kraken)?
I think it represents a current fleet (Leviathan or what follows) so could use any new style or substitute model lines.

2) Should 9.2.1 then be limited to Kraken fleets and let Leviathan cover the new 40k codex creatures and the newer hive fleets?

3) How do we go about splitting creatures into new and old fleets? Background wise it isn't that simple.

Assuming the split would be at Kraken/Leviathan we have the following problematic information.
a) Scythed Hierodules (current small version) where in the Behemoth fleet (possible retcon Apoc Reload)
b) Ravener, Shooter Fex, Tyrant Guard and Biovore are borderline Kraken/Leviathan creatures
c) Haruspex, Malefactor and Exocrine all still exist in Tyranid Fleets (Including Leviathan) (Current Tyranid codex and Apocalypse)

To me it seems both lists have unit problems.
9.2.1 - Includes units that don't exist in the background (Vituperator and Hydraphant plus near extinct Dactylis never mentioned in 40k)
Leviathan - Assault spawn completely left out despite a small amount of infomation proving their existance as a separate species (Carnifex weapon variants are always listed as Carnifex Subtypes)

I think Carnifex weapon variants should be treated like almost every other lists weapon variants, like Dreadnoughts and Razorbacks.

In short 9.2.1 should cover the existing Hive Fleets (Which I think it does excepting the shooter fex and any new codex changes)

Hmmm.
As i see it first we should see that we can come up with good, functional and balanced special rules for the Tyranids. It doesn't really matter which list we use for this as long as we come up with unified tive special rules and unified units stats.
Then we can look which units in which composition should go in which arny list. Or even invent variant creatures for variant lists.

So against my previous statement i say leave the shooting Carnifex and Malanthrope out..of THIS list. If the rules work and the existing units work THEN we can look for more variant creatures to include.

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9.2.1 is supposed to represent the 'Hamman's World' invasion force. AFAIK that was a Hive Fleet Kraken tendril.


In general, I'd say that Kraken would get the Bio Tanks and Hydraphant and Vituperator, whilst Leviathan would get more Carnifexe types but not so much variety in bigger creatures.


I'm not aware of any Apocalypse reference?

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