Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 180 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 ... 12  Next

[Old!] Tyranids v9.0

 Post subject: [Old!] Tyranids v9.0
PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 5:02 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:25 pm
Posts: 9539
Location: Worcester, MA
Quote: (Roberious @ 19 Jul. 2008, 23:06 )

Quote: (jaldon454 @ 18 Jul. 2008, 04:02 )

Are good at forming an area defense behind swarms to prevent those nasty Teleports and deep strikes.

Up against teleporting Terminators they don't stand much of a chance.

They push the Teleport out of places that it could do more damage. It will most likely force the Terminators to shoot at them rather than engage or be engaged. Either way, 150-225 point formation is making the 325 point Terminators get less than its worth.




_________________
Dave

Blog

NetEA Tournament Pack Website

Squats 2019-10-17


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: [Old!] Tyranids v9.0
PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 5:31 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 4:38 am
Posts: 303
Location: Utah, Texas, or some Pacific Island
Up against teleporting Terminators they don't stand much of a chance.


Once again a comparison of unit vs unit or formation vs formation instead of a tactical position vs tactical position.

If the Termies cannot teleport into a position where THEY create an advantageous situation AND ALSO places them in a good tactical position to exploit success, the entire effort becomes pointless. Inserting them into a position that grants them nothing more then the destruction of an enemy formation for the mere fact it can be accomplished is attrition warfare and the least likely way you'll win an Epic-A GT battle.

Genestealers positioned in an area defense behind a swarm protect that swarm from deep striking terminators. IF the Termies are foolish enough to attack the Stealers unsupported, which from behind the Nid army is exactly what they will be doing, then they will surely defeat the stealers but they themselves will also be surely crushed by the swarm the stealers were protecting.

Net result the Stealers die DOING a valuable job and the Termies die accomplishing nothing of value, except of course handing valuable points to the Nids and self-removing the real threat Termies pose had they carried out a more tactically valuable deep strike.

This is called a trip wire because the enemy cannot get at the valuable formation being screened by the cheap screening formation. On the flip side the enemy cannot directly attack the trip wire formation without placing themselves in a position where the screened formation can in turn destroy them.

This is an effective use of troop types for different tactical missions to accomplish a stated goal, and not attrition. Attacking a cheap trip wire formation with an expensive formation (Like Terminators), just because the Termies can destroy them, and at the same time assuring the destruction of those terminators just to eliminate that trip wire screen IS attrition.

Good sound tactical prnciples will defeat attempts at formation to formation attrition comparisons every time in Epic-A. Attrition comparisons DO work in WH40k, as they do also work in squad level actions in the real world (Pull the trigger and hope your plan works), but not so in Epic-A where tactical skill will defeat attrition time and time again.

Jaldon :p

_________________
I know a dead parrot when I see one and I'm looking at one right now.
Tyranid AC


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: [Old!] Tyranids v9.0
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:42 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2006 11:13 am
Posts: 29
Yesterday I played the last game of a Tyranid vs. IG campaign. The campaign lasted lasted roughly one year and I want to give you a short feedback. All the special rules of the Tyranides are really annoying. I played the IG and especially Spawning is annoying. But we came to the conclusion that the Tyranids need them. We also think that the actual version is the best. There are only a few change we suggest:
- Less expendable creatures, especially creatures with DC of 2 should not be expandable
- the effects of the critical hits table of the Dominatrixs should be worse

_________________
Only change is constant.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: [Old!] Tyranids v9.0
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 9:43 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 4:38 am
Posts: 303
Location: Utah, Texas, or some Pacific Island
Yesterday I played the last game of a Tyranid vs. IG campaign. The campaign lasted lasted roughly one year and I want to give you a short feedback.


Have you tried the v9.0 list yet?

That would be the most current list and it specifically addressed the plethora of 'special rules' by simplifying/eliminating as many as possible to 'clean up' the army.

Jaldon :p

_________________
I know a dead parrot when I see one and I'm looking at one right now.
Tyranid AC


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: [Old!] Tyranids v9.0
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:50 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2006 11:13 am
Posts: 29
Yes, we used the v9.0 list and it is much better than the lists before! I faced the Tyranides as an opponent and it is frustrating to achieve no BM's because nearly every creature is expendable, then watch the Tyranid-player rallying nearly every swarm, spawning the creatures I have killed before and form one big swarm out of three. But as I said before: The Tyranids need these special rules. First to give you the feeling to fight Tyranids and second to give the Tyranids the chance to win the game. Without these special rules it would be very hard for the nids to win. The wins and defeats in the camapign were almost balanced and it was a close victory for the IG. I think the current list is a good crompromise between playability and atmosphere. Probably my "annoying" in the post before was to hard. We also recommend only minor changes. Altogether the v9.0 list is a good one.

_________________
Only change is constant.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: [Old!] Tyranids v9.0
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:46 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 4:38 am
Posts: 303
Location: Utah, Texas, or some Pacific Island
Thank You for clarifying the list used Elias........

- Less expendable creatures, especially creatures with DC of 2 should not be expandable


The only DC-2 creature I can think of on the list is the Trygon, which has a brood value of '6', and in most 'tank' swarms often the last unit to get a chance to be spawned. In most battles the Tyranid Army devolves into the less valuable creatures, as they are the easiest to spawn back, while the more expensive creatures rarely get back in the fight once eliminated.

That said we also accept the fact that the v9.0 list is a massive change to the special rules compared to previous lists. Alone this will more then likely result in some modifications/tweeks.

- the effects of the critical hits table of the Dominatrixs should be worse

I cannot agree here as it is in line with most other Titan Class WEs used in the game system. In some ways they are more destructive then other Titan Class WEs as the player can lose the Supreme CO and Spawn ability of this expensive creature in one fell swoop.

I faced the Tyranides as an opponent and it is frustrating to achieve no BM's because nearly every creature is expendable, then watch the Tyranid-player rallying nearly every swarm, spawning the creatures I have killed before and form one big swarm out of three.

This is the view we wanted to create from the opponents side of the table. However I would be interested in hearing how your opponent formed one big swarm out of three?

The wins and defeats in the camapign were almost balanced and it was a close victory for the IG. I think the current list is a good crompromise between playability and atmosphere.

It would seem that despite the tweeks you suggest that you also feel the list is balanced. Your comments have been noted and in the next few games I will keep an eye on these effects.

Thank You for your input.....

Jaldon :p

_________________
I know a dead parrot when I see one and I'm looking at one right now.
Tyranid AC


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: [Old!] Tyranids v9.0
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:57 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 5483
Location: London, UK
I suspect that Elias was referring to past efforts where the spawning was so good that the tendency was to respawn the dead from many swarms back onto a single "super-swarm".

Personally, I like the V9.0 list a lot as it is a big improvement on past lists and does give the intended "feel". However, I am also a bit unsure about the "big" bugs, both uncommon and independent. To take up Elias' point and your reply a second, by definition "expendable" critters should be capable of respawing, and obviously the bigger they are, the rarer this event should be. But I think the list falls between two principles. "respawnable" critters ought to be capable of doing that - but the reduced points mechanisms together with the high respawning costs make that all but impossible for any beast over 4-5 points value. However, if you start from the presumption that you are not in fact going to attempt to respawn them at all, then they do seem quite cheap and powerfull. Independantly, Olly and I both came up with a "big critter" list, intended to field as many large beasts as possible.
See here for Olly's list Mine was similar :- three Hieraphants (275) and a set of Lictors (150) with two Vituperaptors, two Assault groups and a Hive tyrant, together with two Hierodules and a Trygon - Eight on-table activations with a third/fourth turn objective grabber, comprising 5x 6DC critters, 2x 4DC and a 2DC brood. See Hena's battle report here.   In both cases they do seem to cause most opponents great difficulties while being easy / boring to play.

So, for "uncommon" WE, perhaps they could do with a slight upwards points tweak, (to make them rarer), and a downwards respawning point nudge (to give a slightly better chance to spawn). Regarding the independants, I am really unsure about having three DC6 beasts available, even if they are 'easier' to kill, so again, I suspect that an upwards points tweak may be in order. In both cases, and also for the Vituperaptor and Dominatrix, I also suspect that the DC values could be reduced by 1 point. In my game, I had 7x DC4 and DC6 beasts on the table, soaking up MW and crossfire shots from Hena (who was playing his marines very skillfully) and at the end, I had lost a single Hieraphant, all but 1 DC on a second, and a Hierodule (because Hena managed to kill the Hive Tyrant Synapse). Admitedly I was unusually lucky in some of my dice, but even so, Hena's Marines were mostly reduced to bloody smears around these big beasts.

Regarding the debate on Lictors / Gene Stealers; part of the issue lies in the restriction on which Nids can claim / contest objectives, which has an intentional impact on the way they are used. The point is that, going into turn #3 you obviously need to have around six appropriately placed formations to stand a chance of contesting the six objectives. If you have less, then one or more objectives may not be contested, reducing the potential for winning the battle. While you can use them in the ways you describe as a 'tripwire' or distraction, throwing them away in that manner will also reduce the 'Nid's capacity to control objectives.

_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: [Old!] Tyranids v9.0
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:04 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2005 11:09 am
Posts: 276
I've not tried 9.0 yet but I'm hoping to get my first game in this weekend against my wife's cousin (who will be using Eldar).

OrkyBob and I will definitely be using 9.0 in a couple of weeks time when we join forces for a 6k battle against a combined force of AMTL, IG and SM. A Batrep WILL follow!

I just want to clarify something before I try the list...

In 9.0, under the special rules about Expendable...

"Expendable units do not generate Blast markers when they are
removed as casualties. This includes special effects which create
Blast Markers when the unit is targeted."

1. Would I be right in thinking that if a swarm is targeted by a barrage but the template only covers broods then the swarm gets zero blast markers (none for coming under fire and none for any casualties).

2. If the barrage in the case above is a disrupt barrage then again, are no blast markers taken?

Or.....do swarms always receive the BM when coming under fire (even if the only target is a brood)?

Just want to make sure I play this right as if I don't then its a big no-no.

Cheers
Lighbringer

:cool:

_________________
Overseer Lightbringer II


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: [Old!] Tyranids v9.0
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:45 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2005 11:09 am
Posts: 276
Cheers Hena

Clarity has resumed.

Lightbringer
:cool:

_________________
Overseer Lightbringer II


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: [Old!] Tyranids v9.0
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 9:13 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 4:38 am
Posts: 303
Location: Utah, Texas, or some Pacific Island
So, for "uncommon" WE, perhaps they could do with a slight upwards points tweak, (to make them rarer), and a downwards respawning point nudge (to give a slightly better chance to spawn). Regarding the independants, I am really unsure about having three DC6 beasts available, even if they are 'easier' to kill, so again, I suspect that an upwards points tweak may be in order. In both cases, and also for the Vituperaptor and Dominatrix, I also suspect that the DC values could be reduced by 1 point. In my game, I had 7x DC4 and DC6 beasts on the table, soaking up MW and crossfire shots from Hena (who was playing his marines very skillfully) and at the end, I had lost a single Hieraphant, all but 1 DC on a second, and a Hierodule (because Hena managed to kill the Hive Tyrant Synapse). Admitedly I was unusually lucky in some of my dice, but even so, Hena's Marines were mostly reduced to bloody smears around these big beasts.


I do not doubt that adjustments will have to be made, and within my own group this is beginning to become an issue also. However, with the big changes to the special rules and the upward slant given to the WEs I am happily surprised to see the list working as well as it is. Let's give it some more time, and games, before attempting to adjust it right now too shake out anymore possible bugs (Pun Intended) :shutup:

Regarding the debate on Lictors / Gene Stealers; part of the issue lies in the restriction on which Nids can claim / contest objectives, which has an intentional impact on the way they are used. The point is that, going into turn #3 you obviously need to have around six appropriately placed formations to stand a chance of contesting the six objectives. If you have less, then one or more objectives may not be contested, reducing the potential for winning the battle. While you can use them in the ways you describe as a 'tripwire' or distraction, throwing them away in that manner will also reduce the 'Nid's capacity to control objectives.

Here I must disagree that one needs six formations to contest/hold the table objectives, and for the following reasons.

(1) Synapse Groups ARE NOT required to stay in coherency with other synapse creatures from the same group, however they must still remain in coherency with other units from the swarm controlled by the Synapse Group. Thus a single large swarm of common brood creatures controlled by three Tyranid Warriors (Assault Group) could easily contest three objectives all by itself. Often this will be one friendly and two hostile objectives as these swarms tend to be on the attack most of the time.

(2) Genestealers are also Scouts and six of them, for 150pts, can cover a huge area of ground behind the army, often easily being within range to contest two objectives.

(3) My army list always contains an "Artillery Swarm" of Dactylis run by a single Hive Tyrant or a Synapse Node. This Swarm always sits on the friendly Blitz securing it for the battle (Well most of the time anyways.) Sometimes it can even control two, if my opponent places a T&H within 30cms of the Blitz, and many players I know do.

(4) Even a mixed swarm of common and uncommon creatures run by a Nexus Group can accomplish the task of contesting two to three objectives as given in example #1 above.

The point is by turn three you really don't need six formations to contest control the six placed table objectives, and that is for the following reasons.

(1) You can accomplish both the 'Blitz' and 'Take and Hold' objectives controlling only two out of the three on table opponents objectives (Just control their Blitz and one Take and Hold). This prevents the opponent from also achieving their 'Defend the Flag' objective without the need of controlling nor contesting the remaining enemy 'Take and Hold' objective.

(2) As stated above one swarm can easily do #1 above freeing up a second swarm/independent to contest control at least one friendly 'Take and Hold' objective. While another swarm/independent contest controls the 'Blitz' objective. This prevent the opponent from achieving either the 'Blitz' or 'Take and Hold' objectives. Again while not contesting the last friendly 'Take and Hold'

(3) So with just three formations one can accomplish the needed tasks of controlling/contesting and not the claimed six.

(4) I have accomplished the task of controlling/contesting all six on table objectives with just two swarms of common creatures controlled by three Tyranid Warriors, using an army made up of three big Common Swarms backed up by a Hydraphant, Lictors, Genestealers, and an Artillery Swarm (It was 3,000 points).

Intentional Impact

Now IF one decides they want to go with bug deep strike force backed up by Bug ground tanks and WEs then contesting/controlling IS going to probably take the six seperate formations as you have stated, and they had better plan for it. Then the use of Genestealers/Lictors is going to have to adapt to fit the tactics being used in that type of army, but this doesn't require a change to either of these formations or their stats as this is a choice being made by the player.

But then the list IS designed to encourage the use of large numbers of common brood creatures in one or two swarms to take the pressure off the rest of the army's formations. Doing it this way and the Genestealers and Lictors can get down to the business which they were designed for which is to be a pain in the backside to the enemy.

Jaldon :p

_________________
I know a dead parrot when I see one and I'm looking at one right now.
Tyranid AC


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: [Old!] Tyranids v9.0
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 11:12 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 5483
Location: London, UK
I am intruiged here about the army make-up that you describe (and I would certainly echo your comments on how the list is working). I presume you were using two swarms, each controlled by three Tyranid warriors (or six warriors in total), and that you had opposed the Blitzs, with the take and hold objectives relatively close together. Even so, the swarms must have been very large to allow the 6x warriors to be so far apart and yet with sufficient numbers to provide protection.

Also, doing this must also have meant that the swarms were all within 30cms of enemy for most of the game reducing their capacity to respawn to around 4 points on average - so how did you manage to maintain their size throughout the game? given the limited number of formations, this must allow your opponents to fire several times at a particuler swarm, causing it far more casualties than it can replace - even by 'stealing' critters from other swarms.

Up to now, I have been maxing out on the Synapse creatures which in turn provides some subtle choices in the make-up of the independents and broods - and in this, I think the list does work very well indeed. As for the other formations, I think we are in danger of 'violent agreement' - basically you have to use them in the manner most appropriate to your strategy in order to get the best out of them. However, I would contend that 275 points of Hierophant is far better value than 300 points of Lictors or Stealers because of its resilience (in my circles everyone fields at least one aircraft formation, which just murder these lightly armoured scouts). If nothing else, this might suggest some points balance issues within the list, though I do agree more tests are needed.

_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: [Old!] Tyranids v9.0
PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:32 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 4:38 am
Posts: 303
Location: Utah, Texas, or some Pacific Island
I presume you were using two swarms, each controlled by three Tyranid warriors (or six warriors in total), and that you had opposed the Blitzs, with the take and hold objectives relatively close together. Even so, the swarms must have been very large to allow the 6x warriors to be so far apart and yet with sufficient numbers to provide protection.


As the Tyranid Army is almost by default an offensive army I mass both Take and Holds within 30cms of the Blitz, if at all possible. If the opponent wants to bunch up around the objectives it is just meat on the hoof as I then don't have to try and chase them down. So in the enemy half of the table it is easy for a large Common Swarm to claim two if not all three objectives. I think in the last battle I fielded 32xHormogaunts and 20xRaveners in two Swarms, or roughly 26xUnits in each swarm of common creatures. Scared the Bejeebees out of my IG opponent. :vD

Also, doing this must also have meant that the swarms were all within 30cms of enemy for most of the game reducing their capacity to respawn to around 4 points on average - so how did you manage to maintain their size throughout the game? given the limited number of formations, this must allow your opponents to fire several times at a particuler swarm, causing it far more casualties than it can replace - even by 'stealing' critters from other swarms.

(1) You have to give your opponent 'other' things to worry about like the Hydraphant, roving bands of Genestealers, and Lictors popping in out of the blue. Basically put the opponent in the position of having too many targets threatening then they can deal with.

(2) Place Synapse Nodes up front, garrison, and then let it feed the little buggers into the advancing swarms. Often these Nodes are beyond 30cms from the enemy and shove a lot of common bugs back into the feeding frenzy of battle. In the last battle I had one up front, moved the left flank swarm over it, and it kept feeding bugs into for the rest of the battle.

(3) Also have someone distract your opponent around the start of turn three, like a wife/girlfriend in a suggestive low cut outfit, and put some of those lost units back on the table while they are not looking. Considering all the bugs on the table already they will never notice. :tongue: Just kidding don't really do this.

As for enemy fire on a swarm multiple times, yes if you don't use terrain effectively then you could get shot up pretty good. First you gotta use the terrain to reduce the enemy's ability to use multiple shots, hard to do with a big formation but you have got to stay aware of any chance to reduce it. Also for some reason players have an almost unreasoning fear of barrage weapons, no matter how weak those weapons may be, and will scatter their own bases of fire all over the place in the face of those weapons. Hence I always field artillery.

It is almost imperative that the Genestealers/Lictors/WEs create multiple threats the enemy cannot ignore in the area of the main attack to further dilute the enemy fire.

Last, and probably most important, you have got two turns to really bruise the enemy before you have to become concerned about objectives (three if you play it smart and just play to prevent a loss in that turn), so wreak havoc and keep only a sideways glance for the objectives. Work it right and the enemy will be so hammered by turn four you should be able to walk to the objectives needed to win. Of course mess up the whole plan anywhere along the way and you will probably never recover, but that is the fun in these games trying to go for the big win whether one succeeds or not.

However, I would contend that 275 points of Hierophant is far better value than 300 points of Lictors or Stealers because of its resilience (in my circles everyone fields at least one aircraft formation, which just murder these lightly armoured scouts). If nothing else, this might suggest some points balance issues within the list, though I do agree more tests are needed.

First, and a minor point, you cannot get 300 points of Genestealers. In games I have seen Hierophants get blown of the table in a single turn (Ok it was a dumb move on my part, it happens), while I have also seen Lictors rip the heart out of an opponents army in two turns! No matter what it is how you use them.

If my opponent wants to waste his expensive aircraft to snipe at a 125 to 200 point scout formation while my 300-400 point swarms are eating the rest of his army then I would call it points well spent for the Nids. My one friend Tim always fields aircraft in his IG army, but rarely uses it to support his frontline attacks, preferring instead to snipe at the rear echelon stuff like Arty and reserve formations. Yet he always complains that he never seems to get his points worth out of those planes, and I have given up telling him he keeps shooting at the wrong targets. On the flip side Rich just loves his Ork Fighta-Bommaz, and uses them exclusively to pound the formations he is about to attack, flak or no flak they bore in to their target. I am more afraid of Rich's air support then Tim's and Rich almost always loses one turn of air support due to BMs, while Tim rarely does.

As for massive agreement on more work needing to be done, there is nothing wrong with it. Besides without input from everyone we would more then likely botch the job.

So I thank everyone for their input, no matter what it is as I still consider other's opinions even if I don't initially agree.

Jaldon :p




_________________
I know a dead parrot when I see one and I'm looking at one right now.
Tyranid AC


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: [Old!] Tyranids v9.0
PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:10 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 8:16 pm
Posts: 422
Location: Boston, MA
All this talk makes me want to fight some bugs, though with my current Minervan kick I'm not sure it will be entirely pleasant for the Emperor's Hammer...

_________________
Fear is for the enemy, fear and bullets.
-James O'Barr, the Crow


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 180 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 ... 12  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net