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Tyranid AA weapons
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Tyranid AA weapons
PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:37 pm 
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20 attacks. 4(ish) hits.

I can spawn back 4 Gargoyles per turn in an artillery swarm guarding the Blitz no problemo. :)

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Chroma
 Post subject: Tyranid AA weapons
PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:39 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Feb. 02 2007,14:33)
QUOTE
It doesn't matter, it's obviously unbalanced ('specially since the Gargoyles could just be spawned back).

Meotic Spores are teh futur. :( :D

Clouds of Gargoyles seems more plausible as something a moving swarm would use as anti-air than uncontrolled floating spores.

The Meotic Spores seem, to me, more like an organism used to defend Spore Chimneys and other Tyranid "rear areas" than something that would be deployed at the forward edge of battle for an attacking swarm.  

I don't see how they'd be used by a rapidly mobile swarm at all if they aren't self-motive and mainly use wind currents for larger movement.

Don't get me wrong, I love the big floating spore bags!  *laugh*  I wish I could find my original proposal for them.  I just see them more as a semi-static defence than something used by mobile swarms.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Tyranid AA weapons
PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:40 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Feb. 02 2007,14:37)
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20 attacks. 4(ish) hits.

I can spawn back 4 Gargoyles per turn in an artillery swarm guarding the Blitz no problemo. :)

Well, then you're not spawning back dead arty bugs are ya?  *laugh*

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Tyranid AA weapons
PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:45 pm 
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I don't see how they'd be used by a rapidly mobile swarm at all if they aren't self-motive and mainly use wind currents for larger movement.


They are self-motive (They're impelled by an unknown mechanism presumably a psychic thing), moving very fast when close to a target.

It's true that they do drift semi-aimlessly as clouds a lot of the time too, just mindlessly looking for prey.

I feel strongly that they're really cool, and should be included. :)



I don't see how they'd be used by a rapidly mobile swarm at all if they aren't self-motive and mainly use wind currents for larger movement.

Note that this is supposed to be a Phase IV list.

By Phase IV, Meotic spores would be clogging the skies... a Phase IV planet is well and truly infested.




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Chroma
 Post subject: Tyranid AA weapons
PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:49 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Feb. 02 2007,14:45)
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It's true that they do drift semi-aimlessly as clouds a lot of the time too, just mindlessly looking for prey.

I feel strongly that they're really cool, and should be included. :)

Since Tyranids have no aircraft, why can't they have both Gargoyle flocks *and* Meotic Spores as anti-air? ?

To be honest, other than occasional Marine Thunderhawks, air power is practically nil in most of the games in my local play group, primarily: they can't take ground, and, secondly, Pipboy and his Necron Pylons make short work of any aircraft they face. ?*laugh*

And I agree that Meotic Spores are cool.




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Chroma
 Post subject: Tyranid AA weapons
PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:51 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Feb. 02 2007,14:45)
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Note that this is supposed to be a Phase IV list.

By Phase IV, Meotic spores would be clogging the skies... a Phase IV planet is well and truly infested.

Personally, I feel a Phase IV world is already a write-off and am a bit sad that that's the "focus" of the current list... if it was "early" Phase IV, perhaps, but Phase III is probably when the most fighting occurs... at least the fighting that might turn the Tyranid tide for the world in question.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Tyranid AA weapons
PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:57 pm 
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It's worth noting that the 40k Tyranid Codex closest resembles a Phase IV army (They often talk of capillary veins, protein digestion pools and spore chimeys (All Phase IV stuff).

Anyways, if we don't do Phase IV, we don't get anything much larger than a Carnifex. :)

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Chroma
 Post subject: Tyranid AA weapons
PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 4:01 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Feb. 02 2007,14:57)
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Anyways, if we don't do Phase IV, we don't get anything much larger than a Carnifex. :)

That's why I say "early" Phase IV... *laugh*

Other than the Phase descriptions in the BFG Tyranid list, where is there more detail on the various Phases?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Tyranid AA weapons
PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 4:04 pm 
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White Dwarf ran a good piece on it back when the latest codex was released (4 page article IIRC).




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Chroma
 Post subject: Tyranid AA weapons
PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 4:11 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Feb. 02 2007,15:04)
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White Dwarf ran a good piece on it back when the latest codex was released (4 page article IIRC).

Do you recall the issue number?  I have a couple of friends who collect White Dwarf, so they may have it.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Tyranid AA weapons
PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 4:43 pm 
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I'll have a poke through my collection this evening.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Tyranid AA weapons
PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:02 pm 
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I like the AA balloon spore idea and have since it was first brought up more than a year ago.

I've never cared for the Gargoyle AA idea.  The idea of a ground/low-altitude unit flapping up to mob approaching aircraft is awfully far-fetched, imho.

Gargoyles flying around the upper atmosphere looking for jets to suicide against might as well just be balloons.  Compared to the speed of a jet fighter, the reaction/speed advantage of a Gargoyle over a spore balloon is negligible.  Just include the effects of loitering gargoyles in with the balloons and call it done.  Or, you could even come up with ballon stats for Phase IV and then use the same mechanics with a downgrade in effectiveness for Gargoyle swarms in a Phase III list.

I also agree that AA on the Zoanthropes was mostly an add-on because the army had a glaring weakness.  It always felt sort of "tacked on" to me and I like the idea of dropping AA and balancing it with other abilities.

I'm okay with both the idea of a Dom having the reaction time and blast range to have AA, and also with the "spit a giant cloud of corrosive mist" concept for short range, breath weapon AA.  Like the spore clouds, that's relatively passive in that the actual mechanism per the background is just creating a hazard rather than actually shooting at something as fast as an aircraft.

All that feel-good agreement said, I think the idea of a unit that can only be targetted by AA weapons is not good.  I don't think it fits the background description of an enormous cloud of mines (which wouldn't be able to be cleared with normal AA weapons in the time frame of an Epic game) and it introduces new and odd rule interactions.

I'd say treat them as objectives, i.e. cannot be destroyed.  Use the mechanics and point costs to balance them in other ways.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Tyranid AA weapons
PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 6:24 pm 
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also with the "spit a giant cloud of corrosive mist" concept for short range, breath weapon AA.


I thought you were against Template AA?


All that feel-good agreement said, I think the idea of a unit that can only be targetted by AA weapons is not good......

......I'd say treat them as objectives, i.e. cannot be destroyed.  

I agree it'd be quite unusual to have something that's not an aircraft that can only be hit by AA fire.

I'd be inclined to go with cheaper spore clouds that could be shot at rather than making them invincible however (Say 25 points per Meotic Spore marker) and give the Spore Clouds LV status  so everything can shoot at it (With 4+RA to represent how many mines there are).

My justification is that shooting down enough Spore Mines would set off a chain-reaction that would destroy 90% of them (Enough to reduce the cloud to ineffectiveness).

A cloud in IA:4 goes off in a chain-reaction when it downs a Thunderhawk IIRC.



Stats maybe something like:




Meotic Spore Cloud

Type/ Speed/ Armour/ CC/ FF
LV/ Special/ 4+/ 3+/ 5+
Weapons/ Range/ Firepower
Spore Explosions / 25cm / AA3+

Notes: Never rolls to activate. Reinforced Armour. All Spore Clouds on the table scatter 2d6cm in a random direction at the start of each turn.


(FAQ: Only one roll is made, then you move all the clouds the same direction & speed, no more than 30 seconds per turn, very fluffy and doesn't interfere with the game's flow)

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Tyranid AA weapons
PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:14 pm 
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(Hena @ Feb. 02 2007,18:10)
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I think this is closest to what I'm thinking.
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/cgi-bin....y185685

That'd be fine if that's what people want, but personally I dislike the idea of unkillable AA.

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