Actually, I had, and I still do have the full variety. Not 10+ of each, but from memory I think I own 6 Malefactors, 3 dactylis and 7 or 8 Exocrines, which are not as bad models IMO as the other two, but still not great by any stretch of the word. I don't think i have haruspexes, I'll try to search for them if it really matters to you . I also have a few fexes and trygons from the old days, and even some bio titans.



Count as rule is mighty.



Ah, dang it, you read me. I don't want to prevent people from using their old minis, and I can certainly understand that even miniatures of an obsolete design, or even just plain ugly can still warrant a measure of love and tenderness, even if only for old days sake.

I think a careful choice of "count as" recommendation should work well. But since no one who wasn't playing epic before Y2K know what a dactylis or a malefactor is anyway, I think the core list should be made more appealing by using units that are a bit younger.

Stuff can be derived from the biovore if we want some Long range arty options, if we want some Long range shooting, the exocrine could be used as it was I think mentioned in some recent publications, but really if GW was ever to do a miniature for it, it would be redesigned entirely and it is quite possible that it wouldn't look at all like the old model.



I'm not speaking about every whim here, I'm talking 15 years old designs. Given the take of the other lists on this, I'm sure I'm not the only one who would like to collect something sexyer than the infamous tomato chucking slug of old.



Seriously... In the marines section we are looking to include any FW tank variant somewhere, and here you're telling me that 15 years development can safely be ignored for the best...

Anyway, the original "dactylis time" tyranid design was looking to make them as an equivalent to other lists. Other lists could shoot, so tyranids had to be able to shoot. Others had arty, nids needed arty, and the same for transports, etc. This is simply not how this game is designed. I think most of us would agree that it's not a design issue by itself if nids cannot fields dedicated arty units or long range direct fire, if their titans don't work like imperial ones, and if transport options are restricted and exotic (gargoyles hanging on to a harridan, tunnellers).

I can absolutely understand that player might want to play their nid models as they were at the time of their conceptions, but anyone can still play SM2/TL, and I'm sure Netepic can provide for an updated ruleset for that as well. But we're not talking about the same game here. I think the insistence on bringing one the full range of those old models in the list was one of its early mistakes. It was done despite many players opinions, it was done despite JJ opinion and design recommendations, and I still think it's a mistake.
Actually, a variant list to more accurately represent the old models could be made, just as it was done for olders IG models, but I think the core list should mostly feature units that are recognisable by people under the age of 30 (even if I'm 34 myself). Doing it the other way around just make many players stray from the core list. I think this is one of the core issues we have to decide upon if we have to finally make a stable core list.
And when I say decide, what I mean is that "That's the way we did it for years" is not a valid argument.

There are plenty of stuff mentioned in the current background that malefactors (or haruspex, etc) could count as. I don't have the codex under hand at the moment, but yes, this is an issue. After all this does concern a handfull of units.
And even if those models were officially released a few decades back*, it does not make them more available than any kind of conversion from a plastic gaunt and some green stuff, certainly not cheaper, and even with modest skill, it wouldn't even look better.

Officially released and available from 1995 to 2002 isn't a solid argument. Existing collection might be, but as long as I don't see rapiers, thud guns, tarantulas and Capitol Imperialis (among many other things) in the core marine list, I still think this is an argument I can safely argue against.

edit : as 2 of the 3 "competing variant" lists (Jormungandr and Leviathan) are new stuff, I think the choice should at least be re-discussed seriously. In all the other lists though, the core list is a representation from the current background. There are no warp hunters or tempest tanks in the core eldar list, no jump-pack assault troops and landspeeders in the core IG list, and no baneblades in the core marine list.

I have no opposition about having a second list representing the old fluff and with rules made more specifically for the old models. The count as rule should allow any existing collection be it "traditional" or "modern" to be used with both lists anyway.


*does 1.5 count as a few ? ok, I'm stretching it, but I think the point stand

Ultimately there needs to be two lists, one of "old stuff" and one of "new stuff". Developed in tandem, if needs be.


Of relevance, IMO the list in Epic: Xenos should probably be an "old stuff" list, as it also includes Squats (Another "old stuff" kind of list!).

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Designated according to what Hive Fleet they're from then. Should the "old stuff" list be Behemoth or Kraken.

Totally what Atmospheric said. As the slug-tyranids are so old and removed from the current tyranids, they are in effect a variant, and trying to develop an army list with a variant as it's base seems ass-backwards.


Standardise the rules, standardise the units, create a main list, then work on variants.

As I said before, the vast majority of the old units should have a direct new equivalent, so I'm not even sure that 2 lists need to be developed in tandem before a base list is finalised.

FWIW I'm with MikeT here - develop the 'Nids generic principles, rules (and main list) first, then worry about variations later.
The whole point of the "counts as" rule was to cover this precise point about model variations; please lets get back to the 'Nids C&C topic.

That is the goal. The Onachus list is supposed to be an 'original' Tyranid list, bugs that have not absorbed Space Marines or Eldar or Orks or anything else. The fluff as it goes so far is that the Squats and Humans are the first meal contact for them.

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At one point the only people who had seen the Jormungandr/Draconis list was Chroma and myself at around the time that the Leviathan list was frozen. The intention was to wait for an update of 9.2.1 before moving forward with Jormungandr, which I believe was also the intention with Leviathan. That didn't happen so I put it out as it was, same as with Leviathan and more recently Onachus. I'm still very much in favour of identical rules and stats across all the lists and if this latest push goes well I think that might happen and the lists for Jormungandr/Draconis, Leviathan and Onachus will have common base rules and army list construction. There is still work to do on the special rules and I think some of the stats may be tricky (Jormungandr and Leviathan in particular have some diverging stats such as Leviathans hybrid Carnifex/Assault spawn). That will just leave 9.2.1 which is the list for the AC to decide on.

I think some minor variation is acceptable and can easily be explained away in terms of what phase the list is in or how evolved the hive has become. The trick is to not abuse that variance as well as to make it obvious where those differences occur.

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It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

These new lists are the equivalent of the Black Templars/blood Angels/dark angels lists, Variations on the base Codex Astartes list. Yes, they have their own little rules, and some of the base units have altered stats, but they all share a common base.

The problem is, for the Tyranid list, there's no real solid base from which these others are coming from.

It seems pretty rare in most batreps. Are you using it strategically, or are you mostly using synapse creatures to pick up uncontrolled swarms before they go to ground?


I think consideration as a balance mechanism is a good thing. The question is whether it really does that and how often it comes into play. By your own statement, it almost never needs to be measured, so the primary time it would come into play is an uncontrolled swarm. Is outright destruction of the swarm needed to balance spawning when compared to a radical Initiative penalty?

That's not a rhetorical question, btw.


This makes sense to me.


This is my biggest concern as well. I think 1+ creates a substantial shift in the relative value of shooty versus assault units in the list.


I agree there are problems. I'm not convinced that 1/2 Synapse and Independent will address all of them - most, but not all. You'd still have multi-tier crosschecking of points (synapse, independent, biotitan) and something like the Dominatrix taking points from both Biotitan and Synapse allocation would remain untenable in any but the largest games.


If range rarely comes into play, that begs the question of why have it at all. The range can be dismissed and it can simply be a controlled/uncontrolled binary.


Agreed.


It sounds to me like what's under discussion is not that far from what you want to do. Just a couple key things are different.

Two situations that occur frequently:

a) Nid swarm engaging with infiltrators (hormagaunts and raveners). They potentially outsprint the synapse by 20-25 cms (plus the starting distance). That can be reduced by 10 cms after combat resolution, but it still put reigns on the swarm's potential engagement range. The Tyranid player needs to consider whether it is worth sacrificing infiltrators or not.

b) Big swarm with multiple synapse that has already activated loses 2/3rd of its synapse. Suddenly, part of the swarm disintegrates.

These things happen to me at least once every game. So, the synapse rule does come into play.

The main problem with the synapse rule is that you as a Nid player always have to keep it in mind, and quite hard for the non-Nid player to notice (and sometimes even know).

/Fredmans

As it stands there are
'old stuff' list - 9.2.1 - Which will probably have to wait for Chroma
Variant 'old stuff' list - Onachus which I think should be noted is a list for a specific purpose (Epic:Xenos)
'New Stuff' Lists - Leviathan and Jormungandr where Jormungandr has all the newer creatures and Leviathan has a subset of more significant creatures (missing Mawloc, Pyrovore, Tyranid Prime and Hive Guard)
'Bio-Titan' Lists - There is an old Chroma list (Nidzilla) around somewhere and Draconis. Not of particular importance at the moment

Onachus may end up being a variant 'old stuff' list based on what happens with the 'new stuff' lists Leviathan/Jormungandr if 9.2.1 stays the same.

By the way, Leviathan is also eventually intended for a suppliment.

Which one and who are they against?

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That's not confirmed yet. It'll either be against AMTL in the fall of gryffonne IV, or in a suppliment giving new city/hive fighting rules. Think "nids invade necromunda"....