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[Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
Something based on Spore Clouds 48%  48%  [ 15 ]
Something based on Gargoyles 23%  23%  [ 7 ]
Something based on Zoanthropes 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
Something that uses two or three of the above 19%  19%  [ 6 ]
Something else (explain below) 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Tyranids should have no AA 6%  6%  [ 2 ]
Total votes : 31

[Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
Ilushia
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 3:21 pm 
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I don't really like the DTT effect myself, due to the rules for how aircraft movement works... Where exactly does an aircraft begin and end its movement? Is it ever 15cm for Fighters, every 30cm for Bombers as with turning? Do they not have a beginning and ending movement? How does moving through multiple difficult terrain areas work under these conditions?

I'd be much happier with "15cm/AA5+/May Shoot Once at each Aircraft in range".

Simplistic, it keeps them being about as threatening as a single Hydra to most formations (Most enemies they'll get 2-3 AA 5+ shots against) while against really big formations like big Bomma squads they'll be significantly more powerful then individual Hydras but probably not worse then 3 or so hydras. They're short range, and the enemy gets the usual defenses against them. The only real complaint I suspect anyone could have is that they're indestructible, but they're also not particularly great AA units compared to most of the other races in Epic.
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Chroma
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 3:22 pm 
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(Hena @ Mar. 12 2007,14:04)
QUOTE
I don't want to make that "curtain" a possible way in tournament scenario. I think that it's not the point. In assault ... I dunno. Probably not there either.

How is it not possible to prevent placing a "curtain", even over a smaller area like over your Blitz, especially if they're immobile?

It the Tyranid player takes six of them, they just have to string them across the front of their deployment zone and they have a 30cm "band" of anti-air covering, essentially, the entire area. ?If the Spore Clouds can be garrisoned, then three in a triangle around an objective creates a fairly large area of trouble.

With the "drift" effect, holes started opening up in the curtain, and it was actually cool as my opponent started plotting his aircraft through those holes.

Now, as to their "power level", we *are* talking about floating explosive "spores" that are the size of a VW Van, not little balloons! ?*laugh* ?Their payload might not *destroy* an aircraft, but acid and mucus and such may render it combat ineffective, just like dangerous terrain doesn't mean units lost to it are brutally killed, just taken out of action, so armour doesn't have that great of an effect in protecting that. ?

I've thought about allowing "jink" saves for fighters to represent them dodging all the junk in the sky.




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Chroma
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 3:24 pm 
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(Ilushia @ Mar. 12 2007,14:21)
QUOTE
I don't really like the DTT effect myself, due to the rules for how aircraft movement works... Where exactly does an aircraft begin and end its movement? Is it ever 15cm for Fighters, every 30cm for Bombers as with turning? Do they not have a beginning and ending movement? How does moving through multiple difficult terrain areas work under these conditions?

Aircraft only ever make two moves in a turn: Approach Move and Disengagement move. ?So, aircraft would be "attacked" once per Spore Cloud they moved through on the way in, and once per Spore Cloud they moved through on the way out.




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ragnarok
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 3:27 pm 
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Also, going from memory, arial spore mines are about S8 and have 2D6 armour pen, so damaging any size of craft would be easy for them.

It is the hitting that they are not so good at.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 4:51 pm 
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S5, plus 2D6 penetration.

Ap3 too, so slices through armour pretty handily.




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Markconz
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 9:26 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Mar. 12 2007,14:51)
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S5, plus 2D6 penetration.

Ap3 too, so slices through armour pretty handily.

The AP3 only applies to infantry armour, you need AP1 to get any type of bonus against vehicle armour.

2D6 + 5 gives a nice bell curve gradient against armour though....

12 Penetrating hit on a rhino, average dice roll of 7.
+1 Penetrating on a chimera, dice roll of 8.
+2 Penetrating Predator armour, dice roll of 9.
+3 Penetrating Landraider armour, dice roll of 10.


So what are the armour (esp frontal) values of aircraft in 40K? Anyone know?

Also just to check are they able to do penetrating hits or just glancing hits? Ie does it say they are limited to glancing hits (I presume not)?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 9:32 pm 
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So what are the armour (esp frontal) values of aircraft in 40K? Anyone know?


Generally 10 or 11.

A Thunderhawk is exceptional in that it has 12 on its front armour.

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Markconz
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 9:34 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Mar. 12 2007,19:32)
QUOTE

So what are the armour (esp frontal) values of aircraft in 40K? Anyone know?


Generally 10 or 11.

A Thunderhawk is exceptional in that it has 12 on its front armour.

In that case I retract my position  :blush: On the basis that any difference heavy armour makes will generally be counteracted by ability of lighter more agile planes to avoid the mines in the first place.

Difficult terrain away... :D

Still a little concerned about the game balance but make sure they are expensive and should be ok.

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 9:35 pm 
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(ragnarok @ Mar. 12 2007,14:27)
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Also, going from memory, arial spore mines are about S8 and have 2D6 armour pen, so damaging any size of craft would be easy for them.

It is the hitting that they are not so good at.

So, the "1-in-6" of "dangerous terrain" might be about right?

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ragnarok
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:13 pm 
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(Chroma @ Mar. 12 2007,20:35)
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(ragnarok @ Mar. 12 2007,14:27)
QUOTE
Also, going from memory, arial spore mines are about S8 and have 2D6 armour pen, so damaging any size of craft would be easy for them.

It is the hitting that they are not so good at.

So, the "1-in-6" of "dangerous terrain" might be about right?

I wasd slightly out on the strength of the spore mine, but E&C put me right.

Though it is still powerful enough to shred an aircraft.

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:37 pm 
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(Markconz @ Mar. 12 2007,20:34)
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In that case I retract my position ?:blush: On the basis that any difference heavy armour makes will generally be counteracted by ability of lighter more agile planes to avoid the mines in the first place.

May I record this in the annals of the Internet as the first time someone has changed their mind and expressed that change on a Message Board?   :D

Just joshing!

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Markconz
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:51 pm 
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Yes I thought spore mines were weaker  (the normal ones in 40k are rubbish) and thunderhawk armour stronger. Not the case apparently :D

Even a thunderhawk is in serious trouble if it gets hit by a spore mine...

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:54 pm 
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A thunderhawk in 40k is DC3 however. :D

There's a reason the new FW thunderhawk is so big!

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Ilushia
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:02 am 
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Catagorically most things in Epic are less lethal then their 40K comparisons, however. Lascannons (AT 5+) are Strength 9 in 40K. More then capable of chewing up a Land Raider with relative ease (Three or four of these are almost guaranteed a glancing hit on a Land Raider, and even a low-effect glance is sufficient to cause serious trouble for the owner!). Multi-Meltas (MW 5+) are Strength 8 and have 2D6 armor penetration at short range, so will slice through even heavy tank armor with ease to the point where if they hit they're virtually guaranteed to seriously damage or destroy their targets. Never mind battlecannons and demolishers, or Plasma Cannons all of which cut through power armor like a hot knife through butter and much of which will plow right through terminators. In general most shooting attacks in Epic are less powerful then their 40K reflections are, even those weapons which can easily destroy vehicles or entire squads are usually somewhat less effective in Epic. So I have to question the whole TK effect of it. MW I could more then understand, but I don't see these things as being THAT much more powerful then, say, a Multi-Melta relative to their target defenses.
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