What about Genestealers, Lictors etc?

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

2+ Initiative under my last proposal. 3+ under E&Cs proposal it seems.

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Yeah, I was asking E&C

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

Give 'em synapse. Note in text that it's an abstraction to represent their ability to operate independently.

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Then you need to separate out synapse from spawning. I know you don't want spawning, but the majority do, so it'll be there in some form.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

Unnecessary. Just list lictors, 'stealers and meiotic spores as having 2+ init (or whatever) in the army list (like how aspects have 1+ in eldar armies). Making up rules for having synapse only to explain that they get 2+ (or 1+) is redundant.

The synapse/brood/synapse symbiote setup is good to represent general nid command and control, while it helps with Raveners being both in regular broods and tunneller broods.

I'm fine with them being separate.

Probably should be, for clarity, TBH, anyway.


Why 2+ (Different from the rest of the army), really?

Is it actually nessesary to have 3 different levels of initiative (1+ synapse, 2+ independent, 3+ formations that've lost their synapse) ?

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Alas I get the impression Dave is planning to stick to the 9.2.1 style which noone really likes.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

I see the triple split of the Initiative values as necessary to represent the command&control abilities of the Tyranids in the proper way.

Basically you have three kinds of creatures:
- Synapses (creatures with the Synapse ability in Wh40k)
- Independents (creatures with Ld8+ = creatures which have a good chance to surpress their Instinctive Behaviour in order to act to the Hive Minds will)
- Broods (creatures with Ld7 or worse = creatures who have a hard time to surpess their Instinctive Behaviour.)

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BL: We disagree on our interpretation of "Independents". To me the only units that fit in this catagory are the truly independent ones that don't need synapse at all, ala genestealers, lictors etc. To me, all the units that need synapse fit under the same catagory.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

High Leadership creatures wouldn't need a Synapse either. A Haryp for example has the same Ld as a Lictor (10) yet you would put it in the Brood category. I see it as Independent.
The Leadership value in Wh40k doesn't represent the creature's resolve but the influence the Hive Mind has over them. The higher the stronger is the influence of the Hive Mind.
In Epic terms we have bad Iniative creatures, good Iniative creatures and very good Iniative creatures.

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I'm not looking at it solely in comparison to 40k stats, but in terms of epic roles and ease of playability too.

Yes, lictors and harpies are treated roughly the same in 40k, but in terms of epic it's much harder if you have mixed formations of independents and non-independents. In terms of their roles, lictors are going to be off on their own, and harpies are going to be hanging around with harridans and gargoyles, so they're better off as Brood.

Plus, I like the idea of them being spawnable as new ones swoop down out of the sky.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

Harpys act in a similar role as Gargoyles. The Codex also implies that Gargolyes often act alone (or together with Harpys). So a Synapse isn't even needed for a Gargoyle Swarm. Yes the Initiative might be crap but Gargoyles shouldn't be THAT expensive too.
Trygons and Raveners also often act out of reach of a Synapse. Where Trygons are much more reliable the Raveners are more numerous. A Trygon Prime isn't a "must have". Nor is it a Harridan for Gargoyles/Harpys.

All this background fluff together with the hard rules of the Tyranids suggest a three tiered Initiative system for Tyranids. Starting with small creaturs with bad Leadership then bigger and really big creatures with good Leadership and Synapses with very good Leadership if not straight out direct control.

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I'd much rather stick to clear categories rather than having to constantly count how many of each type of unit there is in each formation. Sure it means a little abstraction, but it makes the game run faster and is much clearer to the opponent.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

See my last proposal. I made a step toward you to reach a consensus. No need to count anything:

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