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Hive Fleet Creature Composition

 Post subject: Hive Fleet Creature Composition
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:00 pm 
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All this strikes me as a concious effort to anthromophise the Tyranids and make them more "relatable" / give them more "personality".

Standard application of the modern GW development philosophy, in other words.

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 Post subject: Hive Fleet Creature Composition
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:42 pm 
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He doesn't hunt his body (he doesn't kill him).
He hunts his mind (he drives him insane).

So no worrying about fanatic prey things. Instead there are desolate and hopeless prey things. Much easier to eat.

It shows that the Hive Mind is capable of developing other tactics than pure HULK SMASH! HULK EAT! strategy.


Is there any GW pitch you won't swallow?
Sorry, but I find it harder to consider your view credible or worth considering with each post as you contort into ever more intricate positions to justify everything GW produces.

It's absurd to me that a creature such as a Lictor evolved to track other creatures to pockets of resistance or areas of large amounts of food (i.e. cities, fortresses, etc) is now suddenly Hannibal Lector and seems to get pleasure out of elaborate Saw like murder games.

Making one bag of meat insane has absolutely no meaning or purpose for the Tyranid war machine.
Whether the prey is full of joy or hope is of no concern to the Tyranid war machine.

Those traits stink of Chaos/Dark Eldar evil for evil's sake- which kind of reinforces my point that the motives of the 40k races are being turned into cartoons. Or parodies of themselves.


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 Post subject: Hive Fleet Creature Composition
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:05 pm 
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Well adding humor back to Wh40k would be very Rogue Trader-ish :grin:

Apart from this i don`t swallow all what GW shurns out.
For instance: All those special new Tyranid individuals. Every army can take them. It is actually worse than actual Special Characters like eg Blood Angels Chapter Master Dante.
Inventing those special Tyranids was wrong imho.


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is now suddenly Hannibal Lector and seems to get pleasure out of elaborate Saw like murder games.

The Deathleaper doesn't know pleasure. He acts out of instinct/will of the Hive Mind.
I would be very surprised if the Hive Mind would know any other feeling than hunger and the urge to quell it (so no mustache twirling here). And to quell it it developes the easiest way possible.
And prey which doesn't defends itself is much easier to eat than prey which defends itselfe. Genestealer Cults do something similar but in a very different way.

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 Post subject: Hive Fleet Creature Composition
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:50 pm 
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Those traits stink of Chaos/Dark Eldar evil for evil's sake- which kind of reinforces my point that the motives of the 40k races are being turned into cartoons. Or parodies of themselves.

Like I said, GW wants to make the Tyanids more anthromophic... and one of the ways you do that is give them emotions.

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 Post subject: Hive Fleet Creature Composition
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 11:10 pm 
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nids don't have emotions.  They emerely understand them.

For example:  I understand the responses a cat will make to various stimuli.  This doesn't mean I have cat like respoonses to stimuli.  I can however use what I know about a cat to amke it do what i want.

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 Post subject: Hive Fleet Creature Composition
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 1:13 am 
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Maybe it's just that the 'nids translated Machiavelli into Tyranese.





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 Post subject: Hive Fleet Creature Composition
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 1:32 am 
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I'll preface this with the reminder that arguing background is a murky business- in essence we are all right in our interpretations. So my responses should be taken in light that I know they are only my opinion and I know it's not real.

Tyranids don't think like humans, they don't think. They evolve.

If you have problem X, humans will look at it, analyse it, group-think about it, develop the best solutions, test those solutions on a small scale, if sucessful, proceed with solution X.

Tyranid problem X, they will throw themselves at it on a massive scale, those that suceed will be bred in greater number and thrown at it again. If none suceed, variations and adaptations will be thrown at it in great numbers, until some do.

The individual Tyranid does not ponder, does not plan, does not analyse emotion, does not undertake elaborate psychological campaigns- they work on the grand scale of numbers, evolving rapidly to solve a problem by sheer number of answers thrown at it.

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And prey which doesn't defends itself is much easier to eat than prey which defends itselfe. Genestealer Cults do something similar but in a very different way.


I'm not so much arguing the idea of a Lictor killing the leader-beast of it's enemy, more the way it acts like Hannibal Lector messing with the leader-beasts mind. I just don't see it fitting the Tyranid psychology at all.
The Genestealer Cult is an anomaly because it's member's are human hybrids, and so have human thinking. Besides which do they exist in the new Codex?

Quote: 

For example:  I understand the responses a cat will make to various stimuli.  This doesn't mean I have cat like respoonses to stimuli.  I can however use what I know about a cat to amke it do what i want.


You've fundamentally missed the point that a Tyranid doesn't think like you- a Tyranid beast doesn't observe a creature objectively, making analyses, critical thinking, imagining possible responses, storing deep and long memories in logical, rational ways.

Think ant colony. Highly organised, populations of thousands, able to destroy creatures far larger and more powerful, able to dominate the surrounding land....yet none of them torment or torture their prey for psychological effect. None of them sit on Building Committees to build sustainable nests, not of them vote...
They are cogs in a machine, they are grown for specific animal purposes and follow them as instinctively as ants.

The Tyranids are far scarier (and so interesting to play) to me as a vast uncaring ant colony that kills you as food simply because they are animals- your grand art, your powerful weapons, your ideas of freedom and knowledge mean nothing to this beast. Cthulu essentially.
Anthromophobic tyrants (psuedo-humans- think Disney animals) are far more boring to me.

Should we even bother getting into the Cylon Tyranid? The Special Character that literally cannot be killed- every 12yr olds wildest dream.

Quote: 

For instance: All those special new Tyranid individuals. Every army can take them. It is actually worse than actual Special Characters like eg Blood Angels Chapter Master Dante.
Inventing those special Tyranids was wrong imho.


Reassuring to hear doubt, I was beginning to think you were a GW employee.


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 Post subject: Hive Fleet Creature Composition
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:12 am 
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It could be worse Jeridan, the Nid special characters could be swaggering around with medals and cigars.

Maybe that's being saved for the next edition.  :oo:

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 Post subject: Hive Fleet Creature Composition
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:39 am 
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You can model them on if you want, to complete the look,  :p


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 Post subject: Hive Fleet Creature Composition
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:45 am 
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Has any of thisd discussion assisted the NetEA Tyranid list to move beyond 9.2?

Don't get me wrong, I like all the banter. It's just it would be good to see the 9.2 nid list moving in a direction, one way or the other...  

:sleep:

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 Post subject: Hive Fleet Creature Composition
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:51 pm 
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I don't think anything in the new codex can have any bearing on the 9.2.1 list without putting back development a huge amount. I feel it is pretty close to being a final list, it's just a lot more complicated to use when compared to the core lists and it would require a near complete rewrite to simplify it.

I don't think any of the new creatures will be put in. There are questions but I feel it's really too late to make any major change (Does the Trygon warrant being a DC2 WE now instead of a RA AV, lack of MW attacks, what exactly are Assault Spawn).

The major questions arise when looking at potential derivative lists based on 9.2.1 as a core list. The modern 40k equivalent fleet I feel would be better served by a completely new list rather than a derivative but that will lead to some confusion.


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 Post subject: Hive Fleet Creature Composition
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:59 pm 
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The modern 40k equivalent fleet I feel would be better served by a completely new list rather than a derivative but that will lead to some confusion.

This was the intent of my variant "Hive Fleet Leviathan" list, to drop the older models that aren't mentioned anymore, and only reflect the current model range from 40k.

It has been on pause for five months, awaiting the update of the core Epic Tyranid list.

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 Post subject: Hive Fleet Creature Composition
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 6:04 pm 
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As for impact of the new Codex to the Epic Tyranids it is how the swarm works.
I'm still against the idea that without Synapses a swarm will "vanish". The Codex refined the way Instinctive Behaviour works. There are now Lurkers and Hunters.
Lurkers without a Synapse in range which fail their Leadership test can't move and will shoot at the next enemy target. If there is no target in range/LOS then it moves to the next cover.
Feeders without a Synapse in range which fail their Leadership test can't shoot and have to assault the next enemy unit. They have to always move toward the next enemy unit even if they are outside of assault range.

So a proposal could be to divide Synapse Swarms between Lurker Swarms and Feeder Swarms.

Lurkers are: Lictor, Termagant, Gargoyle and Biovore (and Dactylis and Exocrine i guess)
Feeders are: Hormagaunt, Ravener, Carnifex and Trygon (and Haruspex and Malefactor i guess)

Without Synapses these two kind of Swarms could have penalties if they try an order which is opposed to their instincts, Lurkers might be disallowed to counter-charge if being assaulted, etc. Just ideas.

Possible introduction of the Trygon Prime which is a Synapse Creature (and perhabs with an improved FF value and +1 shot for the  Bio-Electric Field attack) as Synapse Group for the Subterranean Swarm.


And just for note: With Toughness and Wounds 6 the Trygon (all variants plus the Tervigon and Tyrannofex) deserve to be a DC2 WarEngine. Each additional 2 Tougness or Wounds would add another point to the DC imho.
Toughness 3+ & 1 Wound = Infantry
Toughness 4+ & 2 Wounds = Light Vehicle
Toughness 6+ & 4 Wounds = Armoured Vehicle
Toughness 6+ & 6 Wounds = DC2 War Engine
Toughness 8+ & 6 Wounds = DC3 War Engine
Toughness 6+ & 8 Wounds = DC3 War Engine
etc...

As for Tyranids and thinking in general: An animal might know that it thinks but it doesn't know that it knows it. Imho this is the way most Tyranids "think"(including lesser Synapses as Tyranid Warriors, Zoanthropes, etc). Higher Synapse Creature (Hive Tyrant, Dominatrix, Norn Queen) might have thoughts.
The Codex states right there that Hive Tyrants have a consciousness.




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 Post subject: Hive Fleet Creature Composition
PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 2:56 pm 
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The T/W/Sv of the new Tyranids does throw a spanner in the works regarding the Trygon. The fact is the Trygon is either DC2 WE thus Tervigon and Tyrannofex are too (And arguably the Hive Tyrant "unit" that we assume contains Tyrant Guard, T6 with 6-10W) or we can consider that RA is a rule that can be used with AV instead of DC2.

The Tyranid 9.2.1 list I think is about as ready as it's going to be. There are only some stat changes to be put in (The whole review for the NetEA lists is doing this for most other lists).

The decision is whether to start with a new list or to base it on 9.2.1.

I still think a Tiered Initiative is the best Synapse option as it is the simplest to implement and understand (3 Tiers, with Synapse, Independent and without Synapse/Brood).
One of the current lists failings is that it it is easy to make a mistake when making a list. Standard lists have generally a single points limit, 1/3 on Titans/Aircraft. It's particularly easy to go over the Bio-Titan limit as it spans two other limits.

On a modern fleet list with no Assault Spawn - Carnifex/Tyrannofex equivalents must be slow (15cm), no Dactylis equivalent, Exocrine replacement (Tyrannofex) has a shorter range.


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