Then I'm afraid we have very different opinions of what a Tyranid army is- as this is the case, I'll refrain from further criticism (or at least try) and simply work on my own version- purely because it will give me more enjoyment to use in my gaming group.

Black Legion- Not to piss on your parade, but I started playing Epic Armageddon because 40k is a steaming turd. Any reference to the constantly changing rules and Codex's of 40k don't hold any weight with me (as by the time you post it, no doubt GW would have crammed in a novelty unit X, or flip-flopped unit roles, or just plain screwed it up). I'm sorry to be blunt, but if I wanted to follow the rules of 40k, I'd play 40k.

Now when you talk of background (the only thing the 2 games share) I'll listen- such as your 13th Legion reference. Yes, I remember an extract of that story from a previous Tyranid Codex.
I'm pretty sure there are Warriors nearby, if not amongst them.

Chroma- Being controlled by Synapse that isn't there....really?

Point taken Jeridian but the codex usually shows how rare/common a certain unit type is. And this is directly tied to the fluff.

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My "Horde of Tooth and Claws" armies are what I consider the Tyranid army, and it's quite effective and very "Tyranidy".  What's your opinion of them, Jeridian?


Which would pretty much define a "Brood Swarm".


Who knows what the author's intent was.

Where is the max range the Hive Mind can reach out listed?  It's reaching to the Tyrants and Warriors from space, what's to say It can't focus if it wants to or extend range from Synapse when needed?

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There is a small amount of use to be gained from them in this way- chiefly to steal unit names and looks.
But when it becomes slavishly following 40k Special Rules and trying to make 6mm copies of 40k armies it fails.
Epic is much grander (in terms of distances, aircraft, war engines, etc). If anything 40k should be (and is) taking inspiration from the units in Epic, and how they fight.

The truth is both games are artificially abstract from warfare, but 40k is a hundred times more abstract than Epic IMO.
40k occurs in a football field with forcefields around the edges, with no aircraft or war engines, and armies that are a hodge-podge of long-distance field artillery, cruiser tanks, infantry and assault units. It's almost like taking 1 units from each Epic SM formation- that is your 40k army.
And I can understand why for variety of models.

But trying to upscale 40k holds no interest for me.

The vast majority of use a 40k Codex has to Epic is the background (even if it's the small paragraphs next to each unit type)- as the background depicts the unit as it is intended- the rules and unit stats in 40k imperfectly trying to slot this into an imperfect game.
By taking the background and trying to translate it into Epic we get a better thing than taking the background, putting it through the 40k ruleset filter, then trying to translate it into Epic.

It's hard to describe my disdain for the 40k ruleset, hence my rambling post.



Well, you knew I was going to say this but looking at that list, that's a huge amount of Raveners.
I'd prefer Raveners to be around 6-8 in a 1-3 formations of Trygons- as Rare stuff.

You have more Ravener stands than Termagant stands- that's pretty telling.

That aside, not much to fault- Heirophants are near-compulsory, I'd consider Genestealers over Lictors, or anything over Lictors TBH.



Aye, don't recall the sea of Raveners and Warriors.



We're on shakey ground if the Tyranid Army Champion shrugs off such a huge part of Tyranid background as the Synapse control and the feral state creatures get into when it is deprived.
If the authors intended Synapse to be effective from hundreds of miles away, it would never be part of the rules- in any game system- as it in effect would just be a powerful radio communication system- just like every other army has in the game.

You do seem to be defending your rules changes by taking some wide liberties with established background, and using the age-old "It doesn't say I can't".

Welli strongly believe that Wh40k rules for a unit only are developed after the developers come up with fluff for this unit.
So the Wh40k rules (how poor thought out they may be) reflect the units abilities in fluff.
Not the other way around.

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Dude, we were talking about a 40k novel/short story that had a swarm of Gaunts with "no Synapse to be seen"; not the Tyranid game rules.  Seems there might be other ways the Hive Mind maintains control of things at times.

Synapse are a *vital* part of the EPIC Tyranids.  I'd appreciate you standing down from the confrontational attitude of me "shrugging off" the Tyranid background.  

The Phase III list is an alternate army, you still require Synapse to get anything done, they just don't always actually have to be *part* of the formation to do that.

Without Synapse support, Brood-only swarms are going to *quickly* degraded into uselessness... wow, just like in "real life"!


Could you enumerate these "wide liberties"?  The furthest Synapse range I've put into these lists is 15cm, not sure what else you're going with.

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IIRC it isn't stated in IA4 how long it took for Hierophants to grow. IIRC the Anphelion base was deserted for several years bevore the Red Scorpions arrived.

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Those Brood Swarms would also be taking Blast markers on the way in for every casualty they took from fire and every one they lose in an assault, as they wouldn't be "expendable" without Synapse actually in the swarm, so yes, they'll attack non-Tyranid things, but they'll be in sorry shape even if they win.  It's supposed to represent the "waves of bodies" the Tyranids send in to wear things down, without risk of directly losing local Synapse creatures.  The Synapse creatures are still *there*, they're just not getting "stuck in" and risking destruction.

Without Synapse support, those Brood Swarms *will* be "described as slaughtering them off".


You can *still* make an army without Raveners or AVs.  Add extra Warriors, add Zoanthropes, add Biovores to your swarms.  Those are still going to be effective swarms.

This list (Phase IV) is *not* the "Tyranid Infantry Swarm" list, it's the "All the various Tyranid ground forces" list.  You *can* still do an "infantry-like" swarm, but it's not as effective as a infantry-focused variant.  Just like you can do an infantry Imperial Guard regiment with the Steel Legion list, but you'd probably be better served using the Siegemasters.  But with Phase IV, you're better off with "mixed" swarms, and that's *INTENDED*.

It's still a lot of teeth and claws.

And, if you want to "prove me wrong", then do some playtesting of your ideas!  Just use Warriors as infanty in your *PLAYTEST*, make your swarms, play your games, and show me how fine and balanced it all is!  That's how development works!


"We're on shakey ground" and "Hiding behind"?  

What the heck is with all these veiled references to my incompetence and cowardice as Tyranid Army Champion?

I'm not hiding behind anything, Phase IV is when all the critters come out to play. I've never said this is the "list with big things", I've said it was the list that *allowed* big things.

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1) LV's are the weakest unit type with only disadvantages compared to INF/AV. So far not really causing any problems
2) While Raveners and Warriors share the same type (LV) Raveners will be seen as Warrior "Bodyguards". That's a perception and isn't likely to change.
3) Raveners are better than gaunts, which they should be as they are a Warrior based creature. As commons they will see a lot of use.
4) The combination of shared LV type, superior stats and common make Raveners feel like the best choice. It may be true that mixed swarms are better but the feel and initial perception is to take lots of Raveners.

A few suggestions and comments

a) Raveners to Uncommon and 1-1 ratio is a bad idea, we won't be taking Raveners.
b) Raveners to Uncommon with an increased brood size and decreased cost per stand retaining the 2-1 ratio may work, certainly people will be forced to take gaunts
c) Change the Synapse system to the french Initiative based on synapse units alive in formation. Formations who have lost synapse are still operational but activate less often. The penalty of failure to protect synapse is less harsh so we reduce the numbers of synapse protection units like Raveners
d) Something radical like a discounted stand of warriors in each gaunt brood (or per 2 gaunt broods)

A combination of b) and c) may be best

I apologise for my aggressive stance on Epic Tyranids- we both undoubtably have strong views on how they should be, and unfortunately irreparable differences in these views.

I wish you all the best in your Epic Tyranid endeavours and appreciate all the effort that has already gone into Epic Tyranids (much of which I've unashamedly stolen for my own version).

Did you read what I wrote?

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People *like* using WEs in EPIC!  But you don't have to use a lot of War Engines in this version to be effective.

I've played with minimal WEs, rarely use a Dominatrix, with an 3000 point, 80+ model army in this version; what was *not* "Tooth and Claws" about that army?  How were those armies "big focused" at all?

One of my friend's Rage of Raveners had no War Engines in it at all. So, now you've seen such an army.

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That is a fair point, to a degree. But playtesting becomes wasted labor if there are frequent qualitative changes in the character of the list being tested.

The problem with the warrior = LV modification is that it was such a change.  In general, a qualitative change is one where the effects cascade through a range of facets of the list: in this case, the warrior=lv change in turn changed the role and usefulness of guants, changed the role of raveners, and, consequently, changed the role and targets of spawning (because gaunts, the most commonly spawned gribbly, no longer seem so attractive).

Finally, of course, I have some difficulty believing that you'd be willing to be proved wrong.  The subject of discussion seems to wander from the specifics of the army list to various points of fluff, to the size of the miniatures, to the numbers on a base, to further debates about fluff.  I'd suggest that the invitation to playtest your army list would be far more attractive if you were able to state a clear, potentially falsifiable hypothesis to be tested.

All of this leads to a brewing but potentially significant problem, which is the incipient 'hiving off' of other Tyranid lists -- either Jeridian's tooth and claw list, or, for that matter your planned Phase III list, before the current, official list becomes stable.