AV + WE Round Two |
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Lightbringer
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Post subject: AV + WE Round Two  Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 3:19 pm |
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Hena RE Spores - I've just looked again - my bad! So you roll to see if you spawn, then if passed, declare if you are using a spore before you roll the spawning value. I've been playing it wrong for ages !! 
What a clot I am!
Back to the Dominatrix for a mo'- so are you saying 500 points as I descibed it (i.e. with d3+3) or 500 pts with 2d3+2?
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Post subject: AV + WE Round Two Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 3:20 pm |
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I find the Dominatrix is significantly overcosted at 500pts.
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Evil and Chaos
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Post subject: AV + WE Round Two Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 4:10 pm |
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Well 4 shots is too much. So I'd try it with two ... possibly twin linked, but I'm afraid that the weapon is too good and hierodule starts to be a mid range gun support. I think I'll do another thread which will include Exocrine into this as well.
The Hierophant is a decent gun-support platform. During a game of 40k it will often kill more with its guns than it will in Close Combat.
And as I said, it doesn't have a twin-linked Bio-Cannon, it has two Bio-Cannons.
Plus, you want to give it a flame template weapon, which is far, far more effective (Able to get a heck of a lot more than four hits a turn!).
For hierodules. I don't see the connection between them and hierophant. And as they are biological instead of metal I'd be hesitant to make them very hard.
The connection is in their relative toughness.
A Hierodule is just as tough to kill as a Baneblade in 40k, in my experience.
You should try reading Imperial Armour IV Hena... it's has lots of info on the Tyranid large creatures which will help you with their stats.
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Evil and Chaos
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Post subject: AV + WE Round Two Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:21 pm |
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However I am accepting your want to make the stats suitable for WYSIWYG (even if I personally don't care that much  ).
That's my primary criterion when proposing stats... that they should be WYSIWYG and consistant with the 40k universe.
I actually like template weapons, but there's no justification for them in any of the current-canon Tyranid Bio-Titans.
Give a template weapon to the non-canon Bio Titans like the Hydraphant and the Vituraptor.
This I disagree. Breath template gets ~4 units under it (granted with some cases you can double or but more that).
Template weapons will, in general, hit entire formations, or large portions thereof.
Plus I think again you're considering what you'd like the Bio-Cannon to be, and not what it is (An attempt to reflect the 40k Bio-Cannon stats).
2 AP shots per Bio Cannon for a weapon that in 40k has a S10 AP3 large blast template is not too much IMHO.
If a single firing activation is roughly analogous to an entire game's worth of 40k shooting... well over the course of a 40k game a Hierophant should hit six times (12 shots at BS3), and assuming each template is placed over six MEQ models with a 3+ armour save, that's 25 dead models.
This is easily worth four shots in Epic (Which will hit two or three times, and then you have armour saves), indeed it could be argued that the current stats under-perform in comparison!
Bio-Cannons are a very fearsome weapon.
They shouldn't be nerfed just because some don't like the shooty nid army as a concept... it's a fact of the game.
Also the prevalent idea in E:A for nids is close combat / close support. 40k has almost completely abandoned that and most horrid nid lists use shooting fexes (6 of them). So for that reason I might deverge in stats from FW.
I might point out that CC Fexes are also considered somewhat useless in Epic... people only take gunfexes in both Epic & 40k!
Although their greatest potential will always be in CC, Tyranids can (And should) be able to put up a significant ranged ability too.
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Lightbringer
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Post subject: AV + WE Round Two Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:45 pm |
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Sorry to hijack to debate but going back to the Dominatrix Hena - are you happy with the old critical?
Critical Hit: Roll 1D6 and consult the chart below.
1-5: The Dominatrix loses one DC.
6: The Dominatrix?s Symbiote is killed and it is no longer treated as a Supreme Commander
It's inconsistent with the Hydra on which the new stats are based.....
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Post subject: AV + WE Round Two Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:04 pm |
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I don't mind two shots per weapon, but I do mind 4 shots per bio titan.
Well then you've got some kind of a conflict there, because Hierophants have 2 Bio-Cannons. That's 4 shots if you have 2 shots per weapon.
Well one of the principle of design for E:A nids was close combat. Not long range firepower. Frankly I agree with it. So in that sense I'm only happy to reflect that basic concept by not making too heavy firing units. And playability will always override fluff.
Yes, they have a CC bias. But they also have significant ranged ability. That's visibly present in the current list.
Changing the stats of the weapons or creatures away from reflecting the background just because you don't like the background isn't within the remit of the E:A Tyranid list.
The remit is to make a list that reflects the background and the 40k rules... not make a list that reflects your own vision of a spacefaring insect race.
If 40k has stupid (and note I don't mean that bio cannon is stupid in 40k, just the overrepresentation of firing units) rules I don't feel the need to replicate it (same that has been done to eldar tanks armours).
It's may your opinion that having lots of shooting 'nids is 'stupid', but the background and 40k rules have many Tyranids that can shoot. Termagants are one of the the mainstays of a Tyranid horde after all!
Sure Tyranids are CC-biased, but their shooting abilities are very significant, and became moreso with the new rulebooks last year (The Tyranid Codex & Imperial Armour IV), not less-so.
It seems that you don't like the Tyranids of today's background / rules, and prefer those of ten years ago?
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Evil and Chaos
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Post subject: AV + WE Round Two Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:32 pm |
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Thus why I was thinking twin linked ... But if one was to make 4 shots then the pricing will go up. The thing is that Jaldon didn't want mid range firing unit, but CC beast. And I'm honouring that. Also then balancing with template is almost impossible.
Well I don't think Jaldon had read Imperial Armour 4 at all... he was progressively adopting the stats proposed by those who had read it, at least until he disapeared again (I hope he's okay still).
Even with 4 AT shots, it's still an almost incomparable CC beast and if you can get it into combat, it's a no-brainer to do so.
It should have both abilities, according to the background.
Note that it's not just my preference (although it is that as well  ), but it was also basic design from JJ. Had he written the list and published it, what would be your comment then I wonder.
Had JJ written the current Tyranid list, he probably would have changed it to mirror IA:4 and the new Tyranid Codex anyway.
Epic Tyranids should follow the core background & 40k rules... they shouldn't try to diverge off on their own purely for the sake of things (Especially if such divergences repeatedly breaks WYSIWYG with the models we'll be getting).
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Post subject: AV + WE Round Two Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:45 pm |
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I'm in email contact with Jervis at the moment about a semi-related issue (GW support for SG's, I posted his preliminary reply to my letter in the 'lack of support' thread). I'll try and bring it up if I get a reasonable chance, though Epic list development is a long way from my initial reasons for contacting him.
If (notice the if here) I would make stats with 4 bio cannon shots, I would remove the TK cc attacks.
I'd actually be okay with that.
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