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Modern Hive Fleet Jormungandr and Bio-Titan Draconis lists
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=18769		 Page 4 of 6
Author:  arkturas [ Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Modern Hive Fleet Jormungandr and Bio-Titan Draconis lis
Treat them as drop pods. I may be looking in the wrong places but I haven't seen any explantory text for how drop pods work apart from that in the unit entry. I'll tighten the wording to make it clear. Essentially they drop as per planetfall, they must disembark on landing (as drop pod wording), pods cannot be used for crossfire and that if you move the formation away the immobile pods are removed (I assume drop pods are removed when out of coherency of the dropping formation).

Still undecided on the Vituperator, it does provide something different at substantial cost but it doesn't/shouldn't/couldn't exist.
Author:  MikeT [ Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Modern Hive Fleet Jormungandr and Bio-Titan Draconis lis
The obvious solution then is to give the Harridan the Vituperator statline, and create a smaller harridan/larger harpy with the current/old harridan statline (hell, call it Vituperator as well).

Other tyranid units have fluctuated greatly in size (DC total, inf/LV etc), and I don't think GW were specific enough about large flying Tyranids to pin their DC down to 4 rather than 6.
Author:  arkturas [ Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Modern Hive Fleet Jormungandr and Bio-Titan Draconis lis
Some substantial changes have been made.

As per the recent activity the special rules are now the preliminary ones that Jaldon is looking to playtest and the Army Construction falls generally in line with Neals suggestions.

The biggest change though is merging of the two lists into a Jormungandr only list. It is essentially the Jormungandr list in the new form with limited aspects of the Draconis list allowing upto 50% of the list to be made up of DC3 or higher WE. It's positioned as an AV/WE heavy list (from Draconis) but retains the capability to put a lot critters on the table (from Jormungandr).
Author:  carlos [ Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Modern Hive Fleet Jormungandr and Bio-Titan Draconis lis
Looking fwd to reading/playing it thanks
Author:  carlos [ Mon Mar 07, 2011 1:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Modern Hive Fleet Jormungandr and Bio-Titan Draconis lis
Built a list just to try things out. Quite different from Jorm 4.5 as you will see below, even though I'm using some of the same fms that brought me success at the Bristol Winter Warmer.
Synapse 2275 total
#1 'Trix + 2 Scythed Hierods 725
#2 3 Warriors incl Prime + 12 Gaunts + 6 Raveners 525
#3 Tervigon + 6 Gaunts + 1 Tyrannofex 325
#4 Tervigon + 6 Gaunts + 1 Tyrannofex 325
#5 2 Zoans + 6 Gaunts + 6 Biovores 375
Support 725 total
Harridan cluster 175
Harridan cluster 175
1 Barbed Hierodule
1 Barbed Hierodule
1 Barbed Hierodule
Total 3000 pts for 10 activations
Bio-Titan sub-total 1450

This would be quite tough even w/ hardly any AA...
Author:  Ginger [ Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Modern Hive Fleet Jormungandr and Bio-Titan Draconis lis
and these lists will be opposed by some of my 'standard' tournament style Marines and Eldar, both of which have some A/c (or in the Marines case, quite a lot of THawks etc). Will let all know the results.

However, one point to note is the slightly higher than expetced number of activations . . . . .
Author:  arkturas [ Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Modern Hive Fleet Jormungandr and Bio-Titan Draconis lis
Ginger wrote:
and these lists will be opposed by some of my 'standard' tournament style Marines and Eldar, both of which have some A/c (or in the Marines case, quite a lot of THawks etc). Will let all know the results.

However, one point to note is the slightly higher than expetced number of activations . . . . .


There's definitely some trade offs going on with Carlos' list. A lot of the lower DC WE to bring the activations up with some solid anchoring synapse formations. I think single Hierodules are weak enough to be coped with through BM placement to get breaks but it's something to watch as they may need limiting to pairs (or a points bump on a single with a paired discount) if they prove a bit too good as singles.
Author:  carlos [ Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Modern Hive Fleet Jormungandr and Bio-Titan Draconis lis
I just saw the current list config as an opportunity to "do a Warhound" and get those hierodules out there by themselves. Definitely vulnerable, but at the same time it's 3 DC w/ a 4RA and fairly shooty as nids go. Regarding a/c it's not that big a deal, really. The trick is to make all landing options for t-hawks equally terrible so they end up assaulting something irrelevant away from the objectives. No, really! my biggest issue using nids is usually speed rather than AA.
Author:  Jaggedtoothgrin [ Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Modern Hive Fleet Jormungandr and Bio-Titan Draconis lis
I am not keen on this new "have to take a bunch of little bugs" direction for the biotitan list... :/
Author:  MikeT [ Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Modern Hive Fleet Jormungandr and Bio-Titan Draconis lis
I dunno, I would imagine a Tyranid fleet would be less stratified than the Imperium, with it's mandated separation of it's different fighting arms.

Even a splinter fleet with a preponderance of larger creatures would still have a load of more "normal" sized units, if only to perform tasks that something the size of a titan is incapable of.
Author:  carlos [ Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Modern Hive Fleet Jormungandr and Bio-Titan Draconis lis
I agree. A Bio-Titan list should still have many smaller critters for different roles. Hard to imagine a hive fleet creating an army of 'just huge' bio-weapons. Even in the list I posted I have 39 DC... that's almost 5 Warlord's worth of DC!
Author:  Jaggedtoothgrin [ Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Modern Hive Fleet Jormungandr and Bio-Titan Draconis lis
well, i love titans, and titan lists, and am running a tournament event with a special day for 5000pt warengine armies.

and i've been really hoping Zombo would skip ahead on his T-Project and get to the big things so i could get a draconis army to go alongside my other titan lists.

while I agree that a nid army is likely to have lesser beasts running about a lot of the time, i think its quite reasonable that in situations such as, say, breaking a citadel, or fighting a force of enemy titans, a near pure biotitan army could be deployed.
or there could be situations where anything less than a trygon was destroyed before the battle began

It should be an option for the biotitan list, like it is for the others. lesser beasts should allowed, in much the way that skitarii will be included in a AMTL list. 50% restriction isnt a bio-titan list, none of the other lists do so.
Author:  zombocom [ Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Modern Hive Fleet Jormungandr and Bio-Titan Draconis lis
Jaggedtoothgrin wrote:
and i've been really hoping Zombo would skip ahead on his T-Project and get to the big things so i could get a draconis army to go alongside my other titan lists.


I'm focusing on the little stuff first, but I'll get there.
Author:  arkturas [ Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Modern Hive Fleet Jormungandr and Bio-Titan Draconis lis
Jaggedtoothgrin wrote:
I am not keen on this new "have to take a bunch of little bugs" direction for the biotitan list... :/


I do know how you feel but the early Draconis list was a complete Bio-Titan list and the general concensus was that it would never be accepted as a useable list.

The fundamental issue is that the firepower required to take down a full Bio-Titan list is generally beyond the capabilities of currently available lists and of course Bio-Titans can hold their own in CC. Think about 4 Warlord Titans, thats 32DC with 4+RA save and a further 24 shields. A Bio-Titan list would be fielding around 7 Hydraphants, thats 56DC with 4+RA and 6+ Inv saves. It gets worse when you consider that Hierodules are harder on a per point basis (25 Hierodules with 75DC and 4+RA save).

Bio-Titan lists have a combination of hard to kill at range, great combat ability, faster than the average titan and more activations than a general titan list making the list very hard to play against.

The solution proposed for the earlier Draconis list was to force the Tyranid player to take weaker formations. This list does that and still allows a substantial amount of WE.

I'm not saying a full Bio-Titan list isn't possible but it will require some creative ideas.

Jaggedtoothgrin what units would you like to see in a Bio-Titan list? Bear in mind that a list composed solely of Dominatrix, Hydraphant, Hierophant, Hierodule, Vituperator (and maybe Tyrannofex) will not be viable (you may like it but your opponent won't) unless the points are increased significantly (~50% increase).
Author:  carlos [ Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Modern Hive Fleet Jormungandr and Bio-Titan Draconis lis
It's been tested and it was horrendous. The other option is to change the statlines for bio-titans once they are in a bio-titan list, but really they should be consistent across all lists.
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