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Nid Spawning Ideas POLL
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Nid Spawning Ideas POLL

 Post subject: Nid Spawning Ideas POLL
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 5:54 pm 
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Quote: (Dave @ 13 Aug. 2008, 12:19 )

Finer granularity?

1d3 per swarm, +1d3 for not being broken, +1d3 for not being within 30cm.

What would you suggest to replicate that with d6s?

Fixed values. :))

Also the bell curve with the d3s will yield a bigger middle ground and more extreme extremes.


Not really.  The chance of rolling a '6' is 11% on 2D3 compared to 16.7% on a 1D6.  Great.  But the chances of rolling a '5' or a '6' on 2D3 and 1D6 are equal (roughly 33%).  The only thing this 2D3 roll truly does is make a '1' impossible.  As long as everyone understands that and the abilities are priced / balanced accordingly I guess it doesn't matter.  It just screams cheese every time I see it, but at least I have an idea why it's being done now.  Thanks.

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 Post subject: Nid Spawning Ideas POLL
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:19 pm 
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Fixed values. :))


:glare:

The only thing this 2D3 roll truly does is make a '1' impossible.

And make a roll of '4' happen 1/3 of the time as opposed to 1/6th. I get your point that 1d6 allows for a lower number, but the extra variation it creates makes it that more difficult to quantify and balance.

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 Post subject: Nid Spawning Ideas POLL
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:57 pm 
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Quote: (Moscovian @ 13 Aug. 2008, 17:54 )

Also the bell curve with the d3s will yield a bigger middle ground and more extreme extremes.


Not really.

Yes, really.  It's a huge statistical difference.  In technical language, the standard deviation of 2d6 is almost 50% higher than 4d3 (~2.4 v 1.6) and the variance (the "randomness" in rough terms) is more than double.

Look at your own 2d6 v 4d3 chart.

2d6 has 11 possible values.  4d3 has 9, so right away that's more consistency.
The chances of the most extreme result on 2d6 is almost 3% while 4d3 is a bit over 1%.
The 3 most common values on 2d6 account for ~45% of rolls.  On 4d3, 63%.  
It takes the 5 highest probability results of 2d6 to equal the same chances as the 3 highest for 4d3.

So, the extreme results from 4d3 are less likely and results close to the average are more likely.  Even in the absence of statistical analysis, it should be obvious that there is a big difference in how consistent the results are.

As far as totals, 4d3 is very little in the way of a boost over 2d6, because even though it chops off the potential low end results the chances of the high end are also drastically reduced.  The average for 2d6 is 7.  The average for 4d3 is 8.

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 Post subject: Nid Spawning Ideas POLL
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:40 pm 
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Jaldon has presented 4 ways of spawning that all provide roughly the same spawning points, but with greater or lesser variation in the results. Obviously it is possible to use 2D6 rather than 4D3, but there are two problems as Neal points out
1) There is a wider range of possible results using 2D6 (2-12 thather than 4-12). IMO we need fewer rather than more; at least as a basic value
2) The standard deviation values are larger (ie you are more likely to get a number further away from 7 with 2D6 than with 4D3)

The "4D3" mechanic is also appealing because of it's relative simplicity and speed - you can add or subtract dice according to circumstances rather than having to do any maths (the current v9.0 uses both dice and maths, and is felt to be cumbersome as a result).

However, while additional Dice decreases the standard deviation (meaning the result is more likely to be the "average"), it does also permit larger extremes which are possible though less likely. Using more dice also means that you have to add up more numbers which takes time and increases the possibility of errors - especially if you are actually using D6 and interpreting them as D3.

Rather than adding 4D3, isn't it simpler to deduct a single D3 from a base spawn value, and a further D3 if circumstances dictate? We already propose to deduct -2 (which is the average result of a D3) in some of the mechanics; so why not deduct a random amount from the "fixed" spawning value, which IMHO gives us the best of both worlds?

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 Post subject: Nid Spawning Ideas POLL
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:28 pm 
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Whoa, Neal!  Step away from the calculator there.  I was trying to get at (and apparently did a poor job of doing it) that the 2D3/4D3 do more to reduce low rolls than they do to reduce low AND high rolls.    

Since we're talking about a random number no matter what (D6 or 2D3) the list is being designed to deal with random effects.  IMO a D6 is simply an easier thing to deal with in a game than 2D3.  I mean all you have to do is READ THE DIE.  If you want simple, it doesn't get any simpler than that.  If people don't like random they should go with a fixed value and be done with it.  But this is the best of all worlds - you get a random number that mostly generates an average roll PLUS give you a reasonably good chance of generating a high roll.  

As I pointed out, I think it will be fine as long as it is balanced appropriately.  But my initial reaction to it is that it is (read above).

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 Post subject: Nid Spawning Ideas POLL
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:37 pm 
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The point here is that D3 gives a smaller spread of numbers than D6 (obviously :p ) and the debate is actually over just how wide a spread is reasonable / acceptable.

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 Post subject: Nid Spawning Ideas POLL
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:45 pm 
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Quote: (Ginger @ 13 Aug. 2008, 14:40 )

Rather than adding 4D3, isn't it simpler to deduct a single D3 from a base spawn value, and a further D3 if circumstances dictate? We already propose to deduct -2 (which is the average result of a D3) in some of the mechanics; so why not deduct a random amount from the "fixed" spawning value, which IMHO gives us the best of both worlds?

You're going to have to remember those fixed values and possibly add them up. Then you're going to have to roll dice and subtract them from the first value.  That seems overly complicated (i.e. addition, rolling and subtraction) in comparison to just the random method (i.e. rolling and addition).

It also seems counter intuitive to the way rolling works in this game (high rolls are good, low rolls are bad). I'd have to buy new weighted dice.  :;):




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 Post subject: Nid Spawning Ideas POLL
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:57 pm 
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Quote: (Dave @ 13 Aug. 2008, 15:45 )

It also seems counter intuitive to the way rolling works in this game (high rolls are good, low rolls are bad). I'd have to buy new weighted dice.  :;):

Is that why you roll so many 6's for CC resolution? I knew it couldn't be just luck.  :))

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 Post subject: Nid Spawning Ideas POLL
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:42 pm 
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Been thinking about the D3 dilema - seriously, I would recommend buying some (if you can find them), or failing thad, "converting" some existing D6 which should be relatively easy IMO. Basically paint out two pips on the "4" and the "5", and all the pips on the "6", to which you will need to paint on a single pip. Doing this makes a D3 which is so much easier to use than mentally converting a D6.

Dave, I know it is a little counter-intuitive, but pehaps not quite as complex as you make it out. If adopted, we would simply list the base spawning values against each synapse and deduct a number of D3 dice, in much the same way that we refer to the ranged shooting values of a unit and deduct the appropriate factors. The only difference is that instead of being fixed, these factors may be in the range 1-3 (which is why a D6 would be less appropriate).

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 Post subject: Nid Spawning Ideas POLL
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:46 pm 
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Ginger, that actually is a clever idea I never thought of.  :sigh:   Include that little line in the design notes of the list and you can make a lot of people's lives simpler.

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 Post subject: Nid Spawning Ideas POLL
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 12:51 am 
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Boy what a discussion, lots to go over.

The basic thrust of the Random system is to subtract from the number of dice rolled, period.

The following example............

"Every Synapse Group has a Base Spawning of 2D3, except the Dominatrix which uses 3D3. This value is unaffected by the strength of the Synapse Group, or by what units make up the Synapse Group"

Simple, clear, and easy to understand. Note No Synapse Values are mentioned because none are used

"The player rolls subtracts dice from the number available to the swarm for the following reasons
(1) Enemy within 30cms of any unit in the Swarm deduct 1D3
(2) The Swarm is Broken deduct 1D3"

Note that in the final version spawning occurs after all Rally Rolls are taken. Thus a Nid player will be able to use the Withdrawal Move, if the swarm fails to rally, to move it out of range of enemy formations before it spawns.

"The player then rolls the number of 1D3 available, after modifiers are applied to the number of dice available, with the total of those dice being the number of spawning points available to that swarm to spawn units. The player then spawns back units for that swarm. A player must finish all spawning with a Synapse Group before moving on to another Synapse Group."

Once again this is a very simple and clean system for spawning with no math, halving, Synapse Values to add to roll, etc........

2D3/3D3/4D3 is the system that will be used because it returns more stable results. When one throws in the modifiers then a Swarm can achieve results of from 1 to 12 depending on its situation. In the end Swarms further away from the front line will have much better spawning ability compared to those in the fighting line.

If 2D3 is used as an example a Swarm in the front line will only get to roll 1D3 as it is going to be in close proximity to the enemy returning a flat result of from 1 to 3. Swarms not in the fighting line will get 2D3 in a range of from 2 to 6 with mid results occurring more often then far end results. One cannot look at the present random proposal as if it is in a vacuum, one must also look at the modifiers to see what direct effect they will have on the rolls. Therefore it isn't the base number of dice rolled but more how will they actually be used on the battlefield.

1D3 will occur most often in the fighting line and return little to the swarm but a handful of weak commons.

2D3 will produce more stable results with no real bad low end roll (A '1'), and return some of the better commons, maybe some uncommons, and maybe more weak commons.

Broken and getting no dice will encourage Nid players to use the Withdrawal Move in the Rally Phase to pull these Swarms back to get some Spawning, but it doesn't force them to.

This leaves the decision of whether to withdraw a swarm to get better spawning or leave it in the fighting line in the hands of the Nid player.

Also it rewards opponents that effectively force the issue with the Nids by allowing them to interfere with the Nid Spawning, especially Broken Swarms.

Having messed a bit with it now I do like the effect it has......and the ease in which it can be carried out.

Please note that spawning is only one of the changes that will be appearing either tonight or tomorrow. The Spawning itself is going to force some changes, along with the Nidzilla problem and a few minor weapon changes.

I know that these changes will not make everyone happy, that would be an impossible dream, however I feel they need to be done and encourage everyone to please playtest them.

Thanks All...................

Jaldon :p

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 Post subject: Nid Spawning Ideas POLL
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:22 am 
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Hi Jaldon

While I agree with your reasoning regarding the simplicity of the 3D3, 4D3 systems, they do nevertheless permit the possibilty of throwing 3x '1's or worse 4x '1's at a time where that particular swarm has managed to remain unbroken and keep away from the enemy, which seemed to be contrary to your original scenario of the Synapse being able to concentrate on one activity rather than being distracted by other circumstances.

So I was proposing a 5th spawning mechanic that IMO combined the strengths of both the Fixed and Random approaches with little added complexity; by subtracting a number of D3 dice from a fixed value. The principles you describe would still be in force, but rather than throwing fewer dice where the swarm was broken or near the enemy, you would end up throwing more and subtracting a potentially higher number. Note, I was suggesting that a swarm would always deduct 1D3 (so spawning would never be entirely predictable), while the deduction of further dice would also increase the range of possible results making spawning even less predictable.

IMO there are other advantages in this approach because it allows better control over spawning by adjusting the base Spawning values
a) to suit particular synapse costs and abilities
b) to control the potential spawning outcomes (and hence the style of armies).

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 Post subject: Nid Spawning Ideas POLL
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 3:22 am 
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Myself:One cannot look at the present random proposal as if it is in a vacuum, one must also look at the modifiers to see what direct effect they will have on the rolls. Therefore it isn't the base number of dice rolled but more how will they actually be used on the battlefield.


While I agree with your reasoning regarding the simplicity of the 3D3, 4D3 systems, they do nevertheless permit the possibilty of throwing 3x '1's or worse 4x '1's at a time where that particular swarm has managed to remain unbroken and keep away from the enemy, which seemed to be contrary to your original scenario of the Synapse being able to concentrate on one activity rather than being distracted by other circumstances.

I seem to have not been clear here. You must stop looking at the Spawning Roll for each single Swarm and look at its effects Army Wide. For example if an Army has six Synapse Groups, three suffering from modifiers and three not (Using the 2D3 as an example), at the worst, which is very unlikely, they will roll nine spawning points across the entire army.

As I stated the rolls for each swarm, probably how I should have said it,  should not be looked at as if they are in a vacuum as they have effect Army Wide because they occur every turn. The individual rolls are not as important as what the army overall is going to be able to do.

The nice effect of this is it rewards players that field the cheaper Synapse Groups with an army that has good staying power (Hopefully not too much) while forcing those that choose not to field a large number of cheap Synapse Swarms to win quick or suffer the effects of attrition (Less staying power overall).

Thanks All...........

Jaldon :p

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 Post subject: Nid Spawning Ideas POLL
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:30 am 
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No, you were perfectly clear on the "army-wide" effect, especially where your preferred tactic was to push Assault swarms close to the enemy (suffering a reduced spawning capability) while keeping the larger swarms at the rear whose role was to feed critters forwards.

It seems that I have likewise been unclear, because I really like the approach of adding and subtracting dice, it is a simple mechanic that works well. However, adopting this approach of merely allowing each synapse group 2D3 without reference to it's cost would seem to allow me to buy 10 Hive tyrants and assuming that half are suppressed in some way, to re-spawn 15 points per turn which some might think a little excessive.

Equally, were I to buy a Dominatrix, and 5 Hive Tyrants (assuming they are pushed forwards to protect it) I now only get 8 spawning points where the Dominatrix throws 3x '1's - completely wrecking the strategy of feeding forwards the critters. And statistically this will happen once every 27 throws, or  between 6-9 games. It is the extent of this random effect that I am concerned about in the context of using the Dominatrix within the game as a whole, because that single throw  effectively ruins that game.

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 Post subject: Nid Spawning Ideas POLL
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 11:59 am 
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I'm scared to step into the lion pit here but...

I love the simple idea of The new D3 system removing due to game factors but I totally understand Ginger's concerns of the effective while not intentional nerf of the Dominatrix.

How about a compromise of bringing back a synapse value for such WE as the Dominatrix and Vituperator and/or Harridan?

Take an example:
Dominatrix: Synapse(3) adds 3 synapse points to the 3D3 roll with the potential then of generating 6 -12 Spawning points each turn.

While the synapse value is arbitrary and needs changing the effect is somewhere between the quick and easy approach of Jaldon while hopefully tailoring for Ginger's extreme cases.

I hope I don't get mauled for this...

D.

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