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Tyranid AA
Markconz
 Post subject: Tyranid AA
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 7:27 am 
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An ork force like that will be too busy killing your dactylis Hena :p

Try using a force without dactylis, against a decent airforce like eldar.

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Markconz
 Post subject: Tyranid AA
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 7:32 am 
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(Hena @ Nov. 09 2007,05:14)
QUOTE

(Markconz @ Nov. 09 2007,08:03)
QUOTE

(Hena @ Nov. 09 2007,04:54)
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You still haven't answered how you lived with Zoanthrope AA. That was not fast either. It's utterly wrong to believe that there should be fast AA.

I didn't live with it, that's why it was changed.  And yes tyranids do need something that can provide a modicum of air cover to assault swarms, going out and eating things is tryanids theme, not sitting back under a spore umbrella.

You obviously haven't faced much airpower if you don't think this is a problem. No one else has complained about it.

Frankly given that your views seem so far out of line with the majority that you are refusing to use this list entirely - wouldn't your time be better spent coming up with your own list so we can check that out (rather than going over the same old dead ground)?

Tyranid AA was changed because it didn't fit in the fluff. Unless you can remember it, I can link the threads about the original discussions in which Spores got most support for AA. Chroma originally added the Gargoyles because he liked them. They didn't get nearly as much support as Spores.

And why am I doing this? Because Tyranids are important to me and I don't want to see them messed up completely. So I disagree with the list selection... that easy to change. I don't want to go changing unit stats as well!

That was one of the reasons Gargoyles were chosen true, but at least zoanthropes were much better at keeping up with swarms than spores (and it was more than Chroma who liked the idea also).

We need a better reason to change things than 'because tyranids are important to you and you don't want to see them messed up' especially when your lone 'messing up' is many other people's 'fixing up'. How many other people do you see refusing to use the list fullstop?

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Nicodemus
 Post subject: Tyranid AA
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 8:01 am 
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(Chroma @ Nov. 08 2007,12:33)
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Nicodemus, could you expend your idea more so we can see how it differs from the original proposal?

I dont know... Did not pay attention when it was discussed the first time.

But my opinions of Tyranid Flak:

1) Gargoyles with AA is the worst idea. Anything else. I would rather see looted hydras than "bird in the engine".

2) Zoanthrope worked, if was little unfluffy. They provided mobile, shortrange AA.

3) Sporeclouds are easily the "fluffiest" idea. I would forget everything else and make them work.

4) Cheap activation and cheap ZOC are biggest problems with sporeclouds. They should be AA only unit with no effect to landforces.

_


And my proposal would be:

Sporecloud
LV
Move:Special
Save 5+ or 6+? *shrug*
CC: 5+ (So if somebody is so stupid to come and hug a spore she should get hit, and because of no-Activation you could not use these babyes to assault anybody)
FF: - (If you keep yourself far enough you should be able to just shoot these down without risking yourself)
Weapon: Sporecloud AA6+ 15 cm
Skimmer, no ZOC, Movement: drifts 2d6 cm at endphase to random direction, is removed if goes of the table. Cant activate. (What could also be good is to let them make free planetfall, that way you _could_ give aircover to your fastmoving troops, but because of no-ZOC and no-Activation they could not do any "Blitz-Rush")

Points and broodsize does not matter (to me, at this point).

(I used my working time to write this so this is not my 0,0005 cents, it is more like 6-7 euros. :D)

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Tyranid AA
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 8:54 am 
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I'm not sure how the last one's so bad. Range wise it has 15cm shorter range then a Hydra does, and has 2 less shots then a hydra formation does. It's more resilient against blast markers, but that's always the case with Tyranids. Regeneration might be a bit much, maybe, but at 150 points that sounds about right. You trade 15cm of range and 2 shots for some extra survivability. Maybe drop Regen and make it move at 15cm (So it's at least as fast as infantry is). Hardly a game-breaking combination, I'd think, but pretty good basic starting point. Still can't fire on the march, after all, so it'll probably range behind even the 15cm movement swarms.
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Hojyn
 Post subject: Tyranid AA
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 10:51 am 
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(Dobbsy @ Nov. 09 2007,03:00)
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I still don't think Nids should have AA units. It doesn't seem right. A more abstract way would seem simpler and stop all the arguments about what unit should it be? What the unit should have? blah blah blah.... Couldn't the idea that there are always swarms of nid stuff in the air be related with a rule like I proposed earlier? The opponent gets a 50/50 chance to bring his aircraft on and the nid player gets a 50/50 chance to get bombed or not. Pretty balanced IMO.

After some searching on this forum, I found an old idea I had for Tyranid AA (see HERE).

Here it is, copy-pasted from that other thread:

Special rule - Spore clouds
"Aircraft formations automatically receive a Blast marker after their approach move. In addition, after each turn made by an aircraft formation during its approach and disengagement moves, it receives a Blast marker."

This would be an abstract way to represent aircraft unit being incapacitated by Tyranid spores. No casualties, but most aircraft wouldn't be able to activate the following turn.

I didn't get too much support last time (actually, I just realized that nobody but Chroma commented on it :p ), but, as Chroma said earlier in this thread, "everything old is new again", so...  :D
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Tyranid AA
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 11:53 am 
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It's worth noting that Synapse creatures can control the direction that Meiotic Spores fly in (They have limited self-propulsion). That was the justification for giving them an actual speed and an activation in the current list.

I'm in favour of Spores as the primary Tyranid AA unit.

If you take several formations of them, they eat into your Independents budget, which is quite a hamstring for Tyranids, so I think they're self-balancing.

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Kagetora
 Post subject: Tyranid AA
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 8:47 am 
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Well, I'm really not keen on 2 things, Hena.  Random move distance and 15cm range.  

Random move distance, well, at least make it 3d6.  That's hardly anything to begin with...only up to 7", basically.  2d6, you might as well just say 0.   :;):

And the 15cm range...that makes the single WE spore FAR, FAR worse than the current 6 spores.  At least I can spread them out a fair distance and get a decent spread of AA.  With a single model and 15cm range, it will never actually get to shoot.  The enemy will simply fly rings around it.

Stick with a 30cm range.  At least then it might get to shoot once in a while.   :D

Oh, and Markconz...

Does my opponent bringing 2 Thunderbolt formations, a Marauder Formation, and 2 Thunderhawks full of Devestators and Dreadnoughts count as "much airpower?"

I'd say it qualifies.  And I faced it down with 8 Gargoyles on the table total.  They shot a whopping 2 times during the game, doing zero hits.  And, yet, I somehow managed to win.  So, yet again, I fall into the camp of "a mostly stationary AA umbrella of moderate effectiveness that the 'Nids assault out of."  I'll post a BatRep, you can get more specifics there.
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Markconz
 Post subject: Tyranid AA
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 11:34 am 
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Yes thanks for posting the batreps and hope to see more, though (as you say) clearly your opponents were inexperienced. That eldar list btw - voidspinners were separate I hope? Also 3 rangers is illegal?? Just one guardian formation also makes it too easy to eliminate the avatar threat in my experience - and no wraith gate or storm serpents with all those warp spiders?

But anyway it can take some competant thrashing of formations by air before you start to see how impotent the bugs really are from that sort of attack. As you say non-mixed swarms can help (but that has it's own problems in terms of flavour and construction technicalities).

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Markconz
 Post subject: Tyranid AA
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 11:39 am 
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(Hena @ Nov. 09 2007,10:09)
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- Free Planetfall ability could be perhaps used if wanted to boost it and allow Tyranids to get farther reaching AA as well.

Interesting idea, what problems are there with it?

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Markconz
 Post subject: Tyranid AA
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 11:51 am 
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My concern was more around them coming down such that their purpose ends up being not AA but rather some sort of ground attack role (hindering movement etc). However this is not necessarily a problem and may even be characterful (thinking of the deep-striking spore option in 40k codex (the same ability lictors get)) and give them more of a role in games without aircraft. In addition to providing valuable forward AA of course...

Will sleep on it... :)

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