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[Experimental] Tyranid AA
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [Experimental] Tyranid AA
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:09 pm 
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Keep Gargoyles as they are, and keep this rule away from the list. :)

Meoitic spore mines (Or heck, even Zoanthrope AA!) are a far superior mechanism, and Spore mines are much closer to the background.


For me, this idea's a non-starter and I won't be testing it.

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Markconz
 Post subject: [Experimental] Tyranid AA
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:12 pm 
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If attacking a gargoyle swarm I would often try to close assault (eg with orks) if there were not many close combat critters around (eg just a harridan).

I think skimmer could be quite useful for them. Not sure if it is justified, but I think it could be useful!

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Markconz
 Post subject: [Experimental] Tyranid AA
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:19 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Feb. 26 2007,21:09)
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Meoitic spore mines (Or heck, even Zoanthrope AA!) are a far superior mechanism, and Spore mines are much closer to the background.

Gargoyles attacking planes has been part of the background. Meoitic spores are a recent addition to this.

Zoanthropes have never been AA.

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Experimental] Tyranid AA
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:25 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Feb. 26 2007,22:09)
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Meoitic spore mines (Or heck, even Zoanthrope AA!) are a far superior mechanism, and Spore mines are much closer to the background.

Meoitic Spore Mines are a fairly recent "evolution", specifically from Forge World; in almost all other iterations of EPIC, Gargoyles were one of the main anti-air units, I believe, so which background are you referring to E&C?  

I don't think Meoitic Spore Clouds belong in the Tournament List, for the same reason Imperial Forces can't get Defence Lasers that can delay the arrival of Spacecraft (They're in the "Assault" scenario, check it out, it's cool!  :D ), they are a strategic, defensive weapon, not something the Tyranids drag along with tethers when they go out for dinner.

The "Subdual" list represents an *attacking* Tyranid force, and that's the reason Synapse Nodes can't garrison and Greater Nodes can't teleport into the enemy half of the table: the Tyranid forces haven't "developed" the local real estate yet.  That's why I don't think 60cm diameter clouds of barrage balloon spores would have time to become an effective threat.

I *DO* think Meoitic Spore belong in a list of Tyranid defences for EPIC and I'll be posting that stuff soon.

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Experimental] Tyranid AA
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:30 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Feb. 26 2007,21:59)
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How you guys are using Gargoyles? ?Around here they are most typically in a formation with a mix of ground units - something like Vituperator/Raveners (transported)/Gargoyles. ?With no infantry SCs that can move quickly (except the pending winged Warriors), they almost have to be mixed.

I tend to put Gargoyles in my pure infantry (non-flying) Tyranid Warrior swarms to begin with.  I ususally position them on the flanks as I move and place them within 10cm of enemy formations if I'm unable to directly engage them so I can attempt to drag surrounding enemy "supporting" formations into a fight with their 10cm counter-charge if I'm engaged.  

I've found it to be quite an effective deterrent to firefight assaults.

Additionally, even though it's only 6+, I prefer having units with armour, particularly when I'm initiating assaults.

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Markconz
 Post subject: [Experimental] Tyranid AA
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:56 pm 
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(Chroma @ Feb. 26 2007,21:30)
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Additionally, even though it's only 6+, I prefer having units with armour,

What? Oh so it does - why on earth does the gargoyle get armour - its just another gaunt!? :O   And a flying gaunt on top of that - so surely it should be MORE vulnerable.

What was the decision behind this?

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: [Experimental] Tyranid AA
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:59 pm 
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I think the same as with LandSpeeders, Bikes, etc: exeptional manouverability.




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Markconz
 Post subject: [Experimental] Tyranid AA
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:04 am 
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(BlackLegion @ Feb. 26 2007,21:59)
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I think the same as with LandSpeeders, Bikes, etc: exeptional manouverability.

That's what I figured it might be, but was wondering...

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [Experimental] Tyranid AA
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:24 am 
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so which background are you referring to E&C?


The modern background.


Gargoyles are no longer seen as an AA hazard in the modern 40k background.


Remember that everything ForgeWorld produces is first vetted and approved by the central studio.

That makes Meotic Spore Mines canonical... and Gargoyles jumping into engines a thing of the past.


The "Subdual" list represents an *attacking* Tyranid force

If the swarm has Hierophants and Hydraphants, then it certainly has Meotic Spore Mines, fluffwise they're much more 'low-tech'.




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Chroma
 Post subject: [Experimental] Tyranid AA
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:35 am 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Feb. 27 2007,00:24)
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If the swarm has Hierophants and Hydraphants, then it certainly has Meotic Spore Mines, fluffwise they're much more 'low-tech'.

Yes, but they don't drag them along on attacks, do they?

The are a relatively "passive" air hazard, not a tactical asset, if I'm not mistaken.

From the "fluff", do they seek out airfields and such or generally float "randomly" around?

It's not a matter of tech/development/evolution, it's a matter of the nature of the type of army being detailed.

I could see a "Late Phase IV Nesting Swarm" army list that might feature Meotic Spore Mines strongly.  Remember that there can be all kinds of different army list for Tyranids, just like Eldar or Space Marines.

Now, if I recall correctly, Meoitic Spore Mines can make attacks on ground based targets as well, no?

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Hojyn
 Post subject: [Experimental] Tyranid AA
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:08 am 
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(Markconz @ Feb. 26 2007,22:56)
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(Chroma @ Feb. 26 2007,21:30)
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Additionally, even though it's only 6+, I prefer having units with armour,

What? Oh so it does - why on earth does the gargoyle get armour - its just another gaunt!? :O ? And a flying gaunt on top of that - so surely it should be MORE vulnerable.

What was the decision behind this?

I agree with you. "Better maneuverability" doesn't sound too convincing... Are they actually able to dodge bullets?  :p

They're better than hormagaunts and termagants and cost the same. No armour would make them more balanced compared to the other common brood units.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [Experimental] Tyranid AA
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:02 pm 
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From the "fluff", do they seek out airfields and such or generally float "randomly" around?


Synapse creatures can direct Meotic Spore mines to move in any direction they like (So yes, a Swarm could call down Spore Mines to cover their attack, fluffwise).

When there's no Synapse creatures controlling them, they either drift with the winds, or instinctually move towards nearby targets.


So yes, spore clouds can move towards enemies, both on instinct and 'intelligently' via Synapse command.


Now, if I recall correctly, Meoitic Spore Mines can make attacks on ground based targets as well, no?

They can, but fluffwise that happens very rarely... rare enough that on an Epic scale it would be represented by placing a blast marker at most, and more likely completely ignored by ground-based enemies.




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ragnarok
 Post subject: [Experimental] Tyranid AA
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:23 pm 
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Gargoyles were still being used by tyranids in the Warrior of Ultrimar book (though I can't remember how old it is) as AA.

Though I like the idea of using existing gargoyles as AAA, I do see Nealhunts poiunt on that they will find it hard to flap up to engage a strafing jet, yet alone a Maraurder on a high altitude bombing run.

A middle ground (or a red herrin) could be to have an air defence swarm as an independant choice and let the fluff inply that it contains either Gargoyles flying high or meotic spore mines, or both or something else.  What it contains doesn't matter, what does matter is what it does.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: [Experimental] Tyranid AA
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:09 pm 
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You could have a spawnable independant creature with nothing but the suicide AA attack.

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