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Tyranid Bio-Titan Ideas

 Post subject: Tyranid Bio-Titan Ideas
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:15 pm 
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Maybe it's just me. But I would not consider the 2 S8 attacks at WS 4 that a Barbed Heirodule gets to be particularly scary. Heck, even 1 Space Marine Terminator is as good in melee as this thing is offensively! Surely 5 terminators should be drastically better then it is. I'd make it CC 4+, no extra MW attacks at all, it already gets 2-3 attacks just from high DC. And at CC 4+ or CC 5+ that'll do fairly well to replicate it's (comparatively) anemic combat values.


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 Post subject: Tyranid Bio-Titan Ideas
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:17 pm 
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It's the fact that the Hierodule's attacks ignore armour saves that makes it scary, but the Barbed variant is definitely not all that much of a CC threat, thus its complete lack of MW attacks.

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 Post subject: Tyranid Bio-Titan Ideas
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:29 pm 
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New page update:


- Scythed Hierodule (125pts):
- Speed20cm / Armour 4+ RA / DC 3 / CC3+ / FF5+
- Acid Spray /15cm / AP2+/AT6+ / Ignore Cover
- Huge Scything Talons: +2 MW TK(1) CC attacks.


- Barbed Hierodule (125pts):
- Speed 20cm / Armour 4+ RA/ DC 3 / CC4+ / FF4+
- Twin-Linked Bio Cannon 2x / 45cm / AP2+/AT3+ / Ignore Cover
- Bio Cannon 2x / 45cm / AP3+/AT4+ / Ignore Cover


- Trygon (125pts):
- Speed 15cm / DC 3 / Armour 3+  / CC 3+ / FF 5+
- Large Scything Talons: +2 MW CC attacks.
- Bio-Electric field / D3 shots /20cm / AP3+/AT6+ / Ignore Cover
- Invulnerable Save, Infiltrate.


- Harridan (225pts):
- Speed 35cm / DC 3 / Armour 5+ RA / CC4+ / FF5+
- Twin-Linked Bio Cannon 2x / 45cm / AP2+/AT3+ / Ignore Cover
- Large Scything Talons: +2 MW CC attacks.


- Vituraptor (325pts):
- Speed 30cm / DC 4 / Armour 4+ RA / CC 4+ / FF 4+
- 2x Bio Cannons 2x / 45cm / AP3+/AT4+ / Ignore Cover
- Spore Cannon /Template / AP5+/AA5+ /Ignore Cover
- 2x Monstrous Claws - +1EA TK (d3)


- Hierophant (250pts):
- Speed 25cm / DC 6 / Armour 4+ RA / CC 3+ / FF 5+
- Huge Scything Talons: +2 MW TK(1) CC attacks.
Additionally, the Hierophant must select two weapons biomorphs from the Bio-Titans biomorphs list.


- Hydraphant (350pts):
- Speed 25cm / DC 8 / Armour 4+ RA / CC 3+ / FF 5+
- Huge Scything Talons: +2 MW TK(1) CC attacks.
- Warp Blast /30cm /AP4+ AT4+ AA5+
- Bio-Plasmic Breath /Template /MW 5+ /Ignore Cover
Additionally, the Hierophant must select two weapons biomorphs from the Bio-Titans biomorphs list.


Dominatrix (400 pts)
- Speed 25cm / DC 8 / 4+ RA  / CC 3+ / FF 5+
- Large Warp Blast / 30cm / MW 4+ / MWAA 4+
- Bio Cannon 2x / 45cm / AP3+/AT4+ / Ignore Cover
- 2x Monstrous Claws - +1EA TK (d3)
- Smite



Bio-Titan weapons biomorphs:

- Bio Cannon 2x / 45cm / AP3+/AT4+ / Ignore Cover
- Ripper Tentacles - Extra Attacks (d3+2)
- Monstrous Claws - +1EA TK (d3)
- Pyro-Acidic Spray - Template, AP4+/AT5+ Ignores Cover


Changes:

- Bio Cannon changed from AP4+/AT5+ to AP3+/AT4+.
- Twin-Linked Bio Cannon changed from AP3+/AT4+ to AP2+/AT3+. (Note that the number of shots is still going to be very low in an army)

- Barbed Hierodule changed from 5+CC to 4+CC.

- Dominatrix changed from 500 to 400 points.





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 Post subject: Tyranid Bio-Titan Ideas
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:52 pm 
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Ignoring armor-saves in current 40K is really quite common (Any power weapon, any monstrous creature and any weapon of AP 2 or 1 will do that, after all... Lascannons, demolisher cannons, power fists, power swords, axes of khorne, meltaguns, multimeltas, heck even Assault Cannons can do that if they roll 6s!). Most of the Macro-weapons, in my experience, are either melee weapons representing the 10-15 power-weapon attacks an entire squad will get (Marine Terminators on the charge, for instance, get 15 S8 WS 4 attacks which ignore armor), or represent overwhelmingly powerful shots (Multi-meltas which used to be 2" blast-template, S8, -6 Save Mod, 2d12 wounds per shot weapons). Or weapons which are so huge and powerful nothing survives being hit with them (Volcano cannons) unless they're equally huge and powerful. Battle Cannons, which are very potent in 40K, are only 4+/4+ in Epic. 3+/4+ seems perfectly appropriate for Bio-Cannons. The trouble is individual weapons are not that scary in Epic. It's massive multi-shot or multiple weapons per stand that do huge damage. Wraithguard get 2x MW 5+ because they have 5 guys who all wound on 4+ reguardless of enemy armor, have AP 1 weapons and instant-death their targets on rolls of 6s no matter how many wounds they have. a unit of 10 of them (2 stands) walks up to a Carnifex and will instantly kill it on average rolls. All the MW melee-units get at least 5-8 power-weapon attacks. Even the Carnifex can easily get 5 S10 melee attacks to account for it's MW attack, the same number and  power of attacks that a Scythed Heirodule does... But the melee system in 40K breaks down at that level, so giving them TK probably isn't a bad idea. Over-all I like your stuff posted here. But I thought I'd express a bit of comparison when it comes to 'My big tyranid brood critter gets 8 S8 attacks, so it should get 3 MW attacks in melee!' feelings... None of those individual huge creatures get as many attacks in melee as Terminators do right now. Just someof them are even stronger then Terminators are, and are vastly more resilient over-all then even an entire squad of termies.


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 Post subject: Tyranid Bio-Titan Ideas
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 10:11 pm 
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And as it's a fairly common ability, we had full consensus when we took away the Barbed Hierodule's MW ability a while ago... :D

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 Post subject: Tyranid Bio-Titan Ideas
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:01 am 
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Just to let everyone know I have been following the thread and then testing/bouncing it off my local friends.

This last group here is real interesting, thanks E+C, and is pretty close to some of the ideas I have been messing with.

Right now I want to run a comparison of the two across the local group, and then pick the best of the two.

Some Noted Differences

The Trygon Bio-Shock Attack is an FF support attack monster with a 15cm ranged attack also.

Bio-Plasmic Breath is no longer a template weapon, but has a short ranged attack with multiple shots.

Harridan IS DC-3 (Just to make it official :) )

And we are working on a new, hopefully, cleaner "Claw" list for all of the bugs.

We are trying to 'specialize' the AV and WEs a bit more.

Thanks All.......................

Jaldon :p

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 Post subject: Tyranid Bio-Titan Ideas
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:18 am 
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(Jaldon @ Aug. 09 2006,02:01)
QUOTE
Harridan IS DC-3 (Just to make it official :) )

Nooooo not DC minus three, how will it survive.  :p  :laugh: .

I'm glad it is survivnig a bit more now, I might bring my  out of moth balls

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 Post subject: Tyranid Bio-Titan Ideas
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:18 pm 
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(Hena @ Aug. 09 2006,11:01)
QUOTE

(Jaldon @ Aug. 09 2006,04:01)
QUOTE
Bio-Plasmic Breath is no longer a template weapon, but has a short ranged attack with multiple shots.

Nooo.....

I'm being slaughtered here, sniff ...

Don't worry Hena *sends a 'fex to hug hena*.  I'll stand by you to keep at least two flamer template weapons.

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 Post subject: Tyranid Bio-Titan Ideas
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:21 pm 
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I really like the way you are going with the biomorphs on the big guys, it allows a bit of the evolutionary speed and diversity of the bugs into the list without making the army into a micro managed bookeeping nigtmare.

One awkward question:  If I have to select two weapons biomorphs, can I choose the same one twice or do I have to select two different options?  The current wording could be read either way by a qualified rules lawyer depending on what they wanted to prove.

Orde

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 Post subject: Tyranid Bio-Titan Ideas
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:33 pm 
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At the moment you can have two of the same.  Though at one point Pyro acid was a 0-1 choice.

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 Post subject: Tyranid Bio-Titan Ideas
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:50 pm 
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It's simplest and most sensible to allow any combination you like, two bio cannons, one bio cannon & a pyro acid-spray, whatever you like.



Bio-Plasmic Breath is no longer a template weapon, but has a short ranged attack with multiple shots.


As ever, I hope that Bio-Plasmic Breath has been completely removed from any cannon Bio-Titans, since it is a weapon form they do not posess (Ie: as a basic option on the Hierodule or the Harridan, it should be gone, but for the Hydraphant, I'm fine with it).





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 Post subject: Tyranid Bio-Titan Ideas
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 1:03 am 
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Nooo.....

I'm being slaughtered here, sniff ...


Don't panic here it is just an idea we are studying, to see which would be better in effect AND feel right. It may, or may not, work.

I will be posting our local collected ideas ideas sometime this weekend. Again DO NOT PANIC HENA  :cool:  these are just ideas and not official.

Thanks All.....................

Jaldon

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