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BatRep: Tyranid vs Tau, 3k
tneva82	Post subject: BatRep: Tyranid vs Tau, 3k Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 10:16 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 12:17 pm Posts: 606	Quote (Hena @ 05 Mar. 2006 (20:59)) And that it would be too good for the 'nids. Its just soooo annoying . And in this case ended with annihilation of my swarm . Well. With your seemingly cursed dice I can definetly see why . And Jaldon: Yep that Tau AA "suppression" was great. Made me laugh quite a lot. Those bugs just keep coming. _________________ www.tneva.net
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Tactica	Post subject: BatRep: Tyranid vs Tau, 3k Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:38 am
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	Quote (asaura @ 04 Mar. 2006 (01:40)) Asaura, Don't feel bad, I made the same mistake against the Zoanthroapes. Its the wrong call for he AX-1-0 against this army. Your only use for them is large SHT bugs - *IF* you can make them the closest target. If the SHT bugs are surrounded by the little bugs, then your AX-1-0 are of little to no use against this army. I took the 5 aces against the bug army twice with the 4.3.3 Tau - and could make no significant progress with them as the bug player had 10 zoanthroapes in each game, always kept multiple models next to his synapse, and he always surrounded his formations with cheap insignificant bugs - staple tactics for him. Add in the bugs immunity to blast markers.... Fliers are next to useless against the bugs. They easily have one of the best defenses to aircraft in the game! Their really big bugs are typically the only targets of opportunity as you can go for the meaningul targets then - but the latest lists definitely allow you to field a very formidable army without the really big bugs. BTW: the 4.3.3 version of the AX-1-0 is changing. See the Tau list. Its going to lose the AA, its going to lose the MW 6+ GM Tracer Missle in exchange for an AT6+ GM Seeker missle, and its main gun will stay at 4+ to hit. Oh - and it will go up by 50 points! 225 points now. So this same list you played against Hena will soon be 100 points over. For the bug players, CF (Coordinated Fire) is a red herring. Its a trick for us to use to eliminate a formation, but its not a tactic for Tau to base an army around. If you do - its been proven. You'll use up all of your formations very early, you'll run the risk of 'over utilizing' your force where its not needed as you'll put too much firepower there, and you will lose the activation game rather quickly. I personally would highly advise NOT to use CF agains the bugs on a regular basis as the goal for Tau is to eliminate the synapse and stay out of combat - not bunch up and try to eliminate formations to the last bug. The bugs are getting to the point where you cannot really count on actually eliminating formations as there are just too many wounds on the field. Instead, a Tau player is becoming more and more reliant on simply trying to get to the synapse. Regards to the Stingray being too cheap - I HIGHLY disagree. They may perform well against the bugs, but they have lighter armor and are reliant upon markers to be effective. The bugs don't shoot well so cannot exploit their weakness as well as other armies. This formation has proven to be a valuable and even dangerous formation against infantry armies. Its even worse if they don't have armor. Because they are designed to be effective against a particular type of foe - does not mean they need a points increase. There are many versions of playtest results behind the Stingray's current point value. Unless CS is of the mind to change them - which would be a shock to me personally - I think the Stingrays are definitely staying as is. I would recommend the bug developers and playtesters remain concious of the fact that if the bugs get too plentiful and too cheap - their sheer number of wounds are going to run the risk of getting so out of the norm - that the typical tourny list will not be able to adequately deal with this kind of a list, and play against some armor heavy IG or worse AMTL/OGBM list. Even an armor heavy Eldar or chaos force may present a very 180' different experience. I think its very wise to keep the bug 'horde' feel, but I think the spawning portion of that is working well to portray this aspect. I just caution that the bug developers be mindful of making the individual units too cheap. Note: I've yet to see a Tau report of a solid win against the bug army - even a marginal win would be nice to hear about. Thus far - i personally have a couple 1-0, and several 0-0 and 2 losses(both of which were ugly). Asaura is not a bad player from what I can tell. I take note that he lost the tie breaker in one game, and lost 2-0 in another. All this said, I think the bug community here is doing one heck of a job with the bug list, and the games that I've played against it - I've really enjoyed. They've been very "edge of my seat" type games. I've yet to really get the feel that I was "in control" and that's a good thing. Cheers gents, keep up the good work Jaldon & gang! _________________ Rob
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asaura	Post subject: BatRep: Tyranid vs Tau, 3k Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 8:28 am
Brood Brother Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2003 11:34 am Posts: 481	Quote (Jaldon @ 05 Mar. 2006 (20:30)) From reading the report the Tau player had a definite uncharateristic 'lack' of coordinated fire, gotta work on that It didn't seem like the Tau player attempted to mass firepower in any one place to break down the nid army preferring to attempt across the line withering fire. Or am I seeing/reading this wrong? You're reading it right. Not concentrating my fire was a big shortcoming in the Tau game. On Turn 1, I shot at the Genestealers, only to have the remaining two 'stealers wipe out some Pathfinders on Turn 2. A little more firepower would've eliminated the threat for good. Another case is the big fight at the northern objective on Turn 3. I had enough firepower available to wipe out the swarm, but wasted some of it (the Hammerheads) to kill some arty bugs in the 'Nid rear. In my defense, both of the above cases are things that would have made perfect sense against anyone but the Tyranids. The two genestealers looked like a sorry remnant, which shouldn't bother me anymore. Likewise, shooting at the arty bugs on Turn 3 looked like a way to neutralize a threat that hadn't activated on that turn, yet. Both calls turned out to be wrong, but only due to Tyranid special abilities. It's been said many times. I've said it myself. It needs repeating: when facing the 'Nids, concentrate your fire to kill a formation dead. Only proceed to shoot at someone else when you're done with this. The 'Nids don't care about casualties. They don't get BMs.
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Tactica

Post subject: BatRep: Tyranid vs Tau, 3k Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:24 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241

Quote (Hena @ 05 Mar. 2006 (23:18)) Note: I've yet to see a Tau report of a solid win against the bug army - even a marginal win would be nice to hear about. Thus far - i personally have a couple 1-0, and several 0-0 and 2 losses(both of which were ugly). Asaura is not a bad player from what I can tell. I take note that he lost the tie breaker in one game, and lost 2-0 in another. Also note that this game was extremely close. I only won because asaura didn't realise that it was turn 3. And I was in serious trouble of keeping the attack going had there been more turns. My centre was falling apart. In the west I could have been going ahead. But there would have been no chance for me to keep my side of the field empty of Tau. And thus impossible to get 2 goals afterwards. Unless Crisis would have let me assault them with the still alive assault swarm. @Hena, Again, so what i hear you saying is "Tyranids won, but it was close"  - no problem. Also, I understand that it was close to being pushed into another turn if Asaura had done some things differently. However, I still hear you saying - it might have been a draw. In my original statement - its what I've seen before, Tau v Bugs end up in draws or in Tau defeat. I've yet to see a Tau victory v bugs - even with bad Tau players (not that such a result would prove anything) but if a list is working 'right' you would at least expect some amount of losses from the Tyranids. Maybe this is a problem with the Tau list, maybe its a problem with the bug list, and maybe its not really a problem at all. I tend to think the latter honestly. I really don't think there's a problem (yet) with either list... however, both are still under development. What I do grow increasingly concerned over is the low cost + high wound count of the tyranids when there is a theshold maximum of what the 'typical' enemy army can do in shots per turn to the bug list. At the end of the day - there is a point to where the bug list has litterally more wounds on the field than can be reasonably dispatched. I don't know what that number is - I'll be honest. However, with each new release of the bug list I see more and more 'wounds' on the field in the bug list. When combined with immunity to BM and spawning, I grow increasingly concerned that the 'unknown' threshold is being reached. So again - I only caution those smarter than me about these things. Be mindful is all I'm asking - not saying there's a problem at all. Cheers, _________________ Rob

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Tactica

Post subject: BatRep: Tyranid vs Tau, 3k Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 1:02 am

Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241

Quote (Hena @ 06 Mar. 2006 (12:00)) I would have most likely lost though. I had two support swarm close to annihilation. Either could have been easily dealt with by planes. If that had happened, I would easily Tau could have take and hold easily. Then add BTS as I had lost a number of synapses and Tau would have gotten 2 goals. Then I might have gotten blitz but that would be only one goal for me (I had succeeded in taking it). So there is no guarantee that I would have gotten into counting points. IMO Tau had no problem with laying down enough firepower to eliminated the swarms. Usually though my enemies tend to not do that, but fire at all the swarms. This is a general mistake which the nids can deal with. However pounding one swarm enough to kill the synapse is what needs to be done.  I've had one game though with 3 Baneblades going after 3 genestealers. I think asaura figured out why in this game . Also most of the "large amount" of brood has no save. So killing them is a matter of hitting unless I'm in cover. Perhaps we can get round three in a few weeks or month . ...and remember, if v4.4 of the Tau comes out as planned by CS currently, then the AX-1-0 would get more expensive - so there would be 100 points missing from the future Tau list in something else at your next rematch... not that I think its the right call mind you. But I understand why someone might think there is a problem with Nids.

Can't stress this enough - I don't have enough playtest with the new 'Nids to think, assume or even suggest that there is a current problem. From my limited experience with them thus far, I like the way they play! They are quite fun to play against - and so far, very VERY formidable if not frustrating to play against as one might expect the bugs to be! That's all well and good!

I just think a cautious eye needs to be considered *IF* more bugs are made cheaper over time and spawning and BM immunity remain relatively unchanged. Thus a *future* imbalance potential *may* arise. Noting more is meant or implied

I've been wanting to try out a game where my opponent uses my nids and I use his/her army. This would let me learn if I can beat the Nids as I have pretty good idea on how to do it.

I think this is a good excersize in general. It usually allows the stronger player to be determined and it also allows both sides to learn from the other. In addition, obvious unit/formation/special rule problems arise pretty quickly too.

Cheers,