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Spawning, Victory Conditions and Gamey-ness

 Post subject: Re: Spawning, Victory Conditions and Gamey-ness
PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:51 am 
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Ulrik wrote:
carlos wrote:
Moscovian wrote:
Why not just spawn from the back of the board, say to the formation closest to the Tyranid player's table edge?

You could this to the blitz objective in the GTS. That would introduce some extra strategery into the deployment of objectives.


It's a nice idea, but I'd prefer the table edge - not only is it not tied to the GT scenario, but to me, spawning from the Blitz would feel as if the Nids are all coming from it.


Didn't mean coming from the Blitz, but rather coming from the fm closest to the blitz.

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 Post subject: Re: Spawning, Victory Conditions and Gamey-ness
PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 1:06 am 
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Moscovian wrote:
It would be darned easy to figure out proximity to a table edge, it isn't tied to an objective so non-tourney scenarios aren't a problem, and it would be fast. Roll dice, look down, place units, done!


Even in the GT scenario you don't always have a table edge, if corners are chosen. In other scenarios you may not either.


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 Post subject: Re: Spawning, Victory Conditions and Gamey-ness
PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 1:10 am 
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zombocom wrote:
Moscovian wrote:
It would be darned easy to figure out proximity to a table edge, it isn't tied to an objective so non-tourney scenarios aren't a problem, and it would be fast. Roll dice, look down, place units, done!


Even in the GT scenario you don't always have a table edge, if corners are chosen. In other scenarios you may not either.


You don't have a table edge? I'm not that familiar with corners deployment, but I would have thought that you had a table edge, it's only got a bend in the middle.


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 Post subject: Re: Spawning, Victory Conditions and Gamey-ness
PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 1:12 am 
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Ulrik wrote:
zombocom wrote:
Moscovian wrote:
It would be darned easy to figure out proximity to a table edge, it isn't tied to an objective so non-tourney scenarios aren't a problem, and it would be fast. Roll dice, look down, place units, done!


Even in the GT scenario you don't always have a table edge, if corners are chosen. In other scenarios you may not either.


You don't have a table edge? I'm not that familiar with corners deployment, but I would have thought that you had a table edge, it's only got a bend in the middle.


You have half of two table edges. My point is that "table edge" is not something consistent even in the GT scenario, let alone the myriad of other possibilities. Keep things scenario-independant please.


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 Post subject: Re: Spawning, Victory Conditions and Gamey-ness
PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 1:32 am 
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zombocom wrote:
You have half of two table edges. My point is that "table edge" is not something consistent even in the GT scenario, let alone the myriad of other possibilities. Keep things scenario-independant please.


I have to say that when you won't even give the Nids a table edge to use for special rules you're taking scenario-independent to the extreme.

And "closest to your own table edge" is non-ambiguous even with corners.


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 Post subject: Re: Spawning, Victory Conditions and Gamey-ness
PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 1:43 am 
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I also don't like the idea, regardless of the scenario-specificness.


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 Post subject: Re: Spawning, Victory Conditions and Gamey-ness
PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:13 am 
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How often are Nids ending up in a tie breaking condition? If it a lot maybe they do need something "cheesy" to win??

I really don't see the issue in letting Nids spawn whoever/whatever to any formation? If there were CC enemies about I see no reason why the Hive Mind wouldn't spawn CC folk. If your so worried about VP's then maybe base the off the Synapse creatures only like the BTS? So with Brood creatures not being counted it might give a slight advantage to the Nid in a Tie Breaking issue, and it would give the feel that "There's Nids everywhere" So if you didn't out right won then your mostly likely doomed.


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 Post subject: Re: Spawning, Victory Conditions and Gamey-ness
PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:46 am 
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Angel_of_Caliban wrote:
"There's Nids everywhere"


When picturing Nids, I always think of the outpost trap scene from Starship Troopers and how the Marines were never going to win the defensive battle. Games against the Nids (I feel) are best you get that type of feel.

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 Post subject: Re: Spawning, Victory Conditions and Gamey-ness
PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 1:33 pm 
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I always wondered why the bugs didn't surround the facility. I mean, they are BUGS! It's not like they can't crawl on those rocky outcroppings in the back. Otherwise, an excellent scene. I just love Dizzy....

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 Post subject: Re: Spawning, Victory Conditions and Gamey-ness
PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 5:08 pm 
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Agreed Mosc - the scene gives a nice representation of what many seem to think the Nids should look like from either side.

On 'Spawning everywhere' I would suggest this include some form of 'spawning from the rear' - on the Synapses that are furthest from the enemy rather than nearest a given table edge. As others have noted, rules already exist to reduce the ablity to spawn close to the enemy (which seems to be one of the concerns). So perhaps the other control is that units types must also be allocated evenly?


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 Post subject: Re: Spawning, Victory Conditions and Gamey-ness
PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:05 pm 
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Angel_of_Caliban wrote:

I really don't see the issue in letting Nids spawn whoever/whatever to any formation? If there were CC enemies about I see no reason why the Hive Mind wouldn't spawn CC folk.


because spawning isn't supposed to be just a directed creation of creatures (if that were the case, what's doing it?), but re-establishing control of mindless creatures gone to ground, previously infiltrated bugs and so on. In that case, why would the bugs rediscovered be ideally suited to a specific type of combat?

In fact, the more I think about spawning, the more the "spawn randomly from the rear" makes more sense, if what is being represented is this "wave of bugs". Otherwise spawning should be either directed (produced by creatures capable of spawning things) or entirely random as to spawning formation AND spawned unit type (so each synapse containing fm can spawn a random no. of small things, but what those things are must also be randomised).


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 Post subject: Re: Spawning, Victory Conditions and Gamey-ness
PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:23 pm 
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My issues with spawning are, in decreasing order of importance:

Spawning War Engines - other than Trygons this is just preposterous. I'm not even keen on AVs being spawned, but I'll accept it to keep the peace.

BTS and Tie Breaker issues - We need to find a solution that doesn't affect the tournament scenario. The current rewriting of both these conditions is not acceptable to me.

Resurrection - Bringing back the dead is not the same as a steady growing menace. Not at all.

Simplicity - The current wording is overly long and complicated. I'm sure it can be cleaned up.


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 Post subject: Re: Spawning, Victory Conditions and Gamey-ness
PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 12:09 am 
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I don't like spawning of WE either. I think it was originally kind of a substitute for DC regeneration, but I personally would rather reopen that can of worms.


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 Post subject: Re: Spawning, Victory Conditions and Gamey-ness
PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 12:18 am 
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Athmospheric wrote:
I don't like spawning of WE either. I think it was originally kind of a substitute for DC regeneration, but I personally would rather reopen that can of worms.


This is an interesting point. War engines with no void shields really suffer and boosting a war engines firepower to make up for the lack of shields to keep the same points is just not the same. The effect is the same once the shot gets through.

Nids (and other armies that suffer the same fate) need something more. For Nids (seeing that the critical would be so destructive and not Warhound based), having something like regeneration does make sense. Many may think that is gamey or something like that, however I would say those same people are not looking at the greater picture.

Either make the bio titans cheaper, or give them a regeneration ability. There really is no middle ground in that respect if you expect people to take them. If they do come out as a BTS with no regeneration or shields, then they are a liability, not a boon.

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 Post subject: Re: Spawning, Victory Conditions and Gamey-ness
PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 12:32 am 
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frogbear wrote:
Either make the bio titans cheaper, or give them a regeneration ability. There really is no middle ground in that respect if you expect people to take them. If they do come out as a BTS with no regeneration or shields, then they are a liability, not a boon.


They were all given a DC boost when regeneration was removed.


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