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Anyone got a review of the French rules?

 Post subject: Anyone got a review of the French rules?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 2:24 am 
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Quote: (Chroma @ 02 Jul. 2009, 02:13 )

Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 02 Jul. 2009, 01:58 )

brood creatures need synapse in the background and 40k, yet suddenly in the ERC list, sometimes, some brood creatures don't.

That's not great games design, it's inconsistent with the background, with 40k, and with other editions of Epic.

Wow, I was *pretty* sure I'd read that Gargoyles are sent forward in great flocks either alone or with Harridans... which are *not* Synapse Creatures in the background or 40k.

Raveners are also sent out "on their own" in a similar fashion.

It's represented by their Ld 10 statistic, so that they *can* act independently, but they also benefit if near Synapse creatures... so allowing two "modes" of operation in the broader scope of EPIC actually, to me, seems *more* consistent with the way such creatures are represented.

Technically, *Lictors* are Brood creatures, but their fearless ability in 40k kind of short-circuits that.

So why do your Ld.10 creatures suddenly tend to dissappear when they're in a core formation that loses it's synapse then?


It's inconsistent, and another level of muddle to Epic's most muddled list.

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 Post subject: Anyone got a review of the French rules?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 2:32 am 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 02 Jul. 2009, 02:24 )

So why do your Ld.10 creatures suddenly tend to dissappear when they're in a core formation that loses it's synapse then?

It's inconsistent, and another level of muddle to Epic's most muddled list.

*sigh*  Because it's the "bigger picture" of EPIC vs 40k... it's an abstraction of a swarm "going its separate ways" when the Synapse dies... and then those Gargoyles are refocued and repurposed when another swarm "spawns" them; I suppose we *could* make Gargoyles and Raveners fearless, but I don't think that will go over well either..

Allowing Synapse-led swarms to be affected by morale effects, Blast markers, is also "inconsistent" with the 40k version of things, but I think we can all agree that allowing Tyranids to suffer from Blast markers and breaking has been a definite improvement in the list.




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 Post subject: Anyone got a review of the French rules?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 2:39 am 
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*sigh*  Because it's the "bigger picture" of EPIC vs 40k...


So the bigger picture involves indentical creatures behaving much better if they don't have a Synapse creature around to shepherd them...

...I guess I just think that's wrong.


And please don't *sigh*, we're having a debate here, and unnessesary emotional words just hurt the debate and raise ire.




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 Post subject: Anyone got a review of the French rules?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 2:53 am 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 02 Jul. 2009, 02:39 )

So the bigger picture involves indentical creatures behaving much better if they don't have a Synapse creature around to shepherd them...

...sorry, I guess I just think that's wrong.


And please don't *sigh*, we're having a debate here, and unnessesary emotional words just hurt the debate and raise ire.

Actually, they behave *worse* without Synapse creatures, as they give Blast markers when they die and their formation is more likely to break because of that.

---

And I "*sigh*"-ed because your first point in this exchange was "brood creatures need synapse in the background and 40k, yet suddenly in the ERC list, sometimes, some brood creatures don't."

And then when I provide a counter to that you respond with "So why do your Ld.10 creatures suddenly tend to dissappear when they're in a core formation that loses it's synapse then?"

First you're saying Broods need Synapse then you're suggesting they shouldn't need Synapse, so, to me, it felt frustrating and that you were being "argumentative" instead of constructive, but if you are just trying to play Devil's Advocate, that's fine, and I'm sorry I offended you.  It's been a long day helping people move on a rainy Canada Day here.




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 Post subject: Anyone got a review of the French rules?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 2:58 am 
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Chroma: Hand on heart, do you really not think that the current nid rules are over complicated?

Do you really not think it's overcomplicated and confusing that the independant gargoyles could join a normal swarm and so have some gargoyles which were independant and others that aren't in the same formation? Ditto raveners of course.




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 Post subject: Anyone got a review of the French rules?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 2:59 am 
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Chroma, How do you feel about the suggestion that *Brood* trumps *Independant*; so the gargoyles associated with the Harridan are independant unless they get grabbed by a passing swarm? The actual mechanic needs to work in the same way as the Transport rule to avoid double moves etc, but at least it is less confusing - if they are on their own they are independant, while if they are within the control of a synapse they are then brood creatures.

I must say I also quite like the principle behind the French system of bonuses for independant and Synapse creatures, though obviously we cannot combine these bonuses with those from this form.

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 Post subject: Anyone got a review of the French rules?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 3:23 am 
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Quote: (zombocom @ 02 Jul. 2009, 02:58 )

Chroma: Hand on heart, do you really not think that the current nid rules are over complicated?

The only part I think is "over complicated" is the Swarms rule(s?), everything else is fairly simple once you've read it over a few times.

If "fluid swarms" are to be kept, yes, there will need to be some, most likely complicated, rules for them; though I would certainly strive for not over-complicated or confusing rules.   :smile:

Do you really not think it's overcomplicated and confusing that the independant gargoyles could join a normal swarm and so have some gargoyles which were independant and others that aren't in the same formation? Ditto raveners of course.

Okay, here's why I don't find this part over-complicated or confusing: There's no such thing as an "independent Gargoyle", there are no "independent" creatures in the list at all; a "newcomer" reading the list would never think of "independent Gargoyles" as such a thing is never mentioned, it's us "old-timers" that remember older version that, in my mind, seem to be conflating things or making assumptions that are causing this problem.

There are Indpedendent Swarms with Gargoyles in them and there are Synapse Swarms with Gargoyles in them; this in no way changes the Gargoyle's stats.  

When a Gargoyle is hit and destroyed, it checks: Are there Synapse creatures in my swarm? If yes, no Blast marker produced, if no, one Blast marker produced.  This is the same process for any swarm type.  In the End Phase, the Gargoyle checks: Am I in an Independent swarm? If yes, nothing else happens, if no, I must be within 15cm of a Synapse Creature or be removed.

Honestly, what is so over-complicated or confusing about that?

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 Post subject: Anyone got a review of the French rules?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 3:40 am 
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Do you believe the tyranid list is fair to play against an opponent who hasn't read it? Do you think you could clearly and unambiguously explain all the relevent rules in the 5 minute warmup?

These are important factors for me where the nid list fails.




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 Post subject: Anyone got a review of the French rules?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 4:09 am 
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Quote: (zombocom @ 02 Jul. 2009, 03:40 )

Do you believe the tyranid list is fair to play against an opponent who hasn't read it? Do you think you could clearly and unambiguously explain all the relevent rules in the 5 minute warmup?

I would never play any list against an opponent who had not read it with only explaining it in the "5 minute warmup"; if I was in that situation, I'd ask if they wanted to "demo" against said army or play against something else.  The "5 minute warmup" is not where new armies are sprung on an unsuspecting opponent.

These are important factors for me where the nid list fails.


Start with - "Tyranids are alien and strange, somewhat different from other armies."

Relentless - "They are really good at assaulting and rallying..."

Expendble - "...and don't get Blast markers for dying if there are Synapse creatures present."

Mobility - "Because they're manueverable living creatures, a lot of my big stuff ignores dangerous terrain."

Spawning - "I can rebirth a random amount of 'dead' Bugs back to my formations; if I'm broken or near your guys, I get fewer, or none, back and big things cost more than little things."

Goals - "You need to kill my Synapse creatures to get BTS... try for more than half.  Only my Synapse creatures and 'independents' like Genestealers or Bio-Titans can claim objectives for me... so you might want to kill them too."

Of course, all this is predicated on the opponent knowing what Tyranids are from 40k, so that such concepts as "Synapse creature" or "Genestealer" are already understood.

Again, what is tough to explain other than the "Swarms" rule?

Even this is essentially covered with: "Most of my little guys, and some big ones, have to stay near Synapse creatures or I lose them in the End Phase or they might even be stolen by other swarms if they're closer to them."

Does an opponent need the full intricacies of the army before they can play in a friendly game?  Are you not talking and joking and explaining things as you play?  That's what I've always done when I've introduced Tyranids, or Necrons, or Lost and the Damned, or OGBM, or any other "uncommon" army to people for the first time.

---

Do you think you could explain ATSKNF and planetfalling in the 5 minute warmup to someone who had never read about Drop Podding Space Marines?  Do you think they'd have a fun game that first time facing them if they knew nothing about that type of army?




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 Post subject: Anyone got a review of the French rules?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 4:11 am 
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Quote: (zombocom @ 02 Jul. 2009, 03:40 )

Do you think you could clearly and unambiguously explain all the relevent rules in the 5 minute warmup?

People are *still* arguing about rules from core armies after all these years... and, supposedly, those lists have been heavily read by all of us!  *laugh*

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 Post subject: Anyone got a review of the French rules?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 4:29 am 
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Quote: (Chroma @ 02 Jul. 2009, 04:09 )

Again, what is tough to explain other than the "Swarms" rule?

Note that the Swarms rule is my biggest dislike in the list.

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 Post subject: Anyone got a review of the French rules?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 4:36 am 
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Quote: (zombocom @ 02 Jul. 2009, 04:29 )

Quote: (Chroma @ 02 Jul. 2009, 04:09 )

Again, what is tough to explain other than the "Swarms" rule?

Note that the Swarms rule is my biggest dislike in the list.

But essential in maintaining tyranid feel.

Sure it can be rewritten to be more clear but we are talking about playtest version list. Hardly fair to expect it to be as polished as say main rulebook which incidently has rules saying at the same time two TOTALLY opposite meanings so same rules seems to say you can do something and you can't do it. Say something about confusing rules :D

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 Post subject: Anyone got a review of the French rules?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:53 am 
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If the marine list weren't fixed of course I'd try to clarify ATSKNF to solve the issues, yes. Why on earth wouldn't you?

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