Essentially gargoyles when bought with a harridan ignore some of the tyranid special rules and come out of the Independent points total. They are still brood creatures as brood isn't really a special rule, it's a designation that interacts with the Tyranids racial rules.

The swarm composition and synapse rules are ignored because the gargoyles are in an Independent Swarm and not a Synapse Swarm.

They also ignore the expendable rule as there is no synapse unit in the Independent Swarm.

As brood creatures the gargoyles can be spawned but only into synapse swarms (and not the Harridan's swarm).

I agree the wording needs work but how exactly can it be made simpler when there are 3 creatures that appear in Independent Swarms and Synapse Swarms. (I don't think forking those 3 units into 6 is viable and you can't just directly assign racial special rules either as they depend on the Swarm type (Synapse or Independent) and Swarm composition (presence of synapse creatures))

It doesn't "raise" the question, it actually answers it: A "Harrassment Swarm" specifies what units in consists of, a Harridan and, possibly, Gargoyles; so, yes, they come out of the Independent section and follow those limits.  It's got nothing to do with Brood Groups and Synapse Swarms.  The "independent Gargoyles" are not subject to Synapse Swarm creation/rules at the start of the game, because they're not *part* of a Synapse Swarm.

Even if the Harridan is killed, the Gargoyles that are part of its Swarm are *still* Independent, following all they appropriate rules.  Gargoyles, specifically, are used in two very distinct ways by the Tyranids: 1) as semi-self-directed "forward" elements used to channel prey creatures and 2) as an aerial "screen" around ground swarms.

Once a Gargoyle is *dead*, spawning doesn't care where they originally came from to return them to play in a Synapse Swarm.

The Harridan is *not* a Synapse Creature, it doesn't lead anything except Gargoyles, it doesn't have the option to be Synapse, or have any psychic powers, etc, in 40k at all.  It's a big "harassment" unit sent forward to sow terror, and Gargoyles.

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[personal bugbear]

Problems like this are, to me, just a symptom of the overcomplicated nature of the tyranid list. There are too many special rules, with too many exceptions leading to a result that can, frankly, be a bit of a mess.

Papering over the cracks by changing the wording is one option, but the real problem is that the list differs too much in too many ways from the epic ruleset.

My personal solution would be to lose the swarm/brood rules entirely and have fixed formations, along with an initiative penalty for losing synapse ala the french list/E&C's Hive Fleet Leviathan list.

For me, it's simply vital for any epic list that you should be able to turn up to a game with someone who's never seen the list and be able to explain it in the 5 minute warm-up before the game, to a level where there will be no confusing it ingame. Most lists pass this test, but a few don't. Tau are just over the borderline, as are Necrons, but both can be explained fairly well in the 5 minutes, even if a few details get left out.

Nids however have no hope of being fairly explained to the opponent in that time, and that's unfair.

[/personal bugbear]

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Well, Harridan's *were* synapses in earlier versions of the list, and I am not sure why it was dropped

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

Yeah, I know they were... *laugh*

But they aren't in 40k, which "informs" our stats in EPIC; they've just been known to "lead" Gargoyles on occasion, nothing else.  They appear, mainly, to be a mobile gun/assault platform, not a "leader"-type.

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I can accept joining gargoyles to the independent Harridan, but not this twisting of their abilities. As others point out, this will lead to confusions on the battlefield as to which gargoyles were independent should the formations become intermingled in some way, and you cannot even overcome this by colouring them differently as later they could be returned as brood creatures.

Ok, it seems that you want to keep this 'harrasment swarm' as a Harridan and up to 4x gargoyles. Is there any way we can treat the Harridan as both synapse and an indepenent creature? Does it matter whether the broods are payed for as 'independent'?

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My Leviathan proposal deals with this issue by having formations of Independent Harridans, as well as having a Harridan with Synapse Symbiote Upgrade (thus being a Harridan that can have Gargoyles following it around).

I removed the Vituperator from the Leviathan list as it's never had a model, never will have a model, and never even came close to becoming an official part of the background.

My Leviathan proposal has 461 words total in the Special Rules section, around one third the ammount of Special Rule words in the ERC army list (1291 words).

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Not sure what the "twisting" is referring to.

But this is the same effect that occurs with the Subterranean Swarm, but there hasn't been any confusion, that I've heard, regarding whether the creatures in that Swarm "go away" without Synapse or anything.  Nothing in the Sub Swarm can spawn, it takes Blast markers as normal, and the dead units can be respawned to Synapse.  It's the exact same thing as the Harrassment swarm, so where is the confusion that the Gargoyles "go to ground" coming from?

Making the Harridan a "semi-synapse" is just going to lead to more special rules... and single unit special rules are the worst.

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Umm...Some sort of special rule like brood(X) leader which allows to maintain brood creatures of correct type as if synapse creature and apply that to harridan?

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I can also imagine *Biggles* would want to sow gargoyles in turn #2, embark some more from a nearby swarm in turn #2, to sow some more gargoyles in turn #3

While 40K *informs* EPIC, perhaps this is one of those occasions where we choose not to follow exactly? Otherwise you are effectively describing either 'independent' gargoyles which would seem to cause one set of problems, or the Harridan as a *gargoyle synapse* which would seem to cause other problems.

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Okay, that's a wee bit disingenuous...  *laugh*

All the special rules are practically the same, but you cut out a lot of flavour text and use bullet points.  I can get the "army rules" down to 530 doing that... pre-bullet pointing!

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Well this is saying that a gargoyle is a brood creature, except when it is independent when it ignores the *brood* ability. It is a bit like the childhood question "when is a door not a door?"  

I have not played the *Subterranean* swarm rules, but if it works as you describe, it will also suffer from the same problem. At the end of each turn you end up having to both check for synapse control while remembering that one gargoyle is currently a *brood* creature while a neighbouring gargoyle is *independent* although it looks and feels identical in every way. Unfortunately IMO this will be horribly confusing.

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Doesn't the leviathan list get rid of swarms, broods, synapse destruction etc?

That's not "practically the same" at all.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

Indeed, it's not the same at all.

Also there is some fluff text to the Special Rules, though not enough (could do with about 20 words more for each of the 5 Special Rules).

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Uh... no.

The listed special rules are in Leviathan are:

T1.01 - RELENTLESS

T1.02 - DISPOSABLE

T1.03 - MOBILITY

T1.04 - SPAWNING
With "fixed" spawning point values based on Synapse.

T1.05 - FREE PLANETFALL

"Synapse" and "Brood" are not individually defined, but are referenced in a few of the special rules and the "Swarm Building" is the same thing as the Hamman's World list with "Synapse Broods" that have "Common and Uncommon Broods" assigned to them.

It also (re-?) introduces the Brood Hive as a spawning booster.

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