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Rags KISS approach

ragnarok

Post subject: Rags KISS approach

Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 10:35 am

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(Evil and Chaos @ Feb. 18 2008,19:15)

QUOTE

though I will be removing fearless from carnies when I use it in future.

As I noted in your report, you've been using fearless under the 'old' rules, not the revised rules, so you may have had a skewed impression of it.

I don't mind a fearless broken chrage into BtB. It is what fearless guys would do when it goes belly up. One last glorious charge.

The problem is when it is a formation of 9 units with 3+ save and 2 3+ attacks 1 of them MW.

I don't mind broken CC titans charging across the table, it is just large formations of fearless troops.

If anything non synapse in the list should have fearless it should be
Lictors - to represent them "cloaking"
Hierodules - they are bigger and dumber than fexi, they should care about being broken.

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Dobbsy

Post subject: Rags KISS approach

Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 12:49 pm

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OK i've been playing around with your KISS army list Rags so I could get my head around it and here's a more detailed form for at least the rules ....

Please let me know if I've missed anything or put in by mistake etc. I thought the list could use a bit of tidying up from your PDF as that is quite brief so I blended the 8.4 rules writing with yours. i hope you don't mind. You'll notice italicised sections I wasn't sure about what to do with so if you can say if it should be removed that would be great

--------------------------------
T1.0 FORCES
T1.1 TYRANIDS

Special Rule - T1.1.1 Tyranid Xenopsychology
Tyranids are a completely alien threat and do not organize themselves in the manner of normal armies with distinct battle groups and chains of command. In fact, the attacking Tyranids shouldn't even be considered an "army" at all, but merely the limbs and organs of a vast "super-organism" seeking prey. This bizarre organization is reflected in the following special rules.

Tyranid Swarms:
Tyranid forces are divided into three basic types of units: Brood creatures, Independent creatures, and Synapse creatures (with Brood creatures themselves being further subdivided into Common and Uncommon types). Independent creatures are organised into fixed formations, just like non-Tyranid units.

Synapse creatures and Brood creatures are treated a bit differently. Instead of fixed formations, these creatures are combined to form a "Swarm" that is controlled by a Synapse Group. Both the Synapse Group and the Brood creatures associated with it are treated as a single Swarm.

At the start of the game, the Tyranid player assigns Brood creatures to Synapse Groups, creating swarms. These swarms must be set up in legal formation coherency. If the Tyranid player wishes, they may hold some Brood creatures in reserve and not assign them to any Synapse Group.

During the Action Phase, in general, a Swarm is treated in every way like a normal formation.

In the End Phase, ??after spawning, synapse swarms may be reorganized.

??First, any Brood creatures out of coherency are removed from play and then any Brood creatures that are within control range of one Synapse group become part of its synapse swarm. If any Brood creatures are within control range of two or more Synapse Groups then the Brood creatures may join any one of the Synapse Groups, as decided by the Tyranid player. To avoid confusion, it is recommended that the units in doubt be turned to face the swarm they belong to.??

In the End Phase, units out of coherency are removed from play.

Independent Swarms:
All Independent swarms have an initiative rating of 2+ and use the And They Shall Know No Fear rule as per the Space Marine army list rules.

Brood Swarms:
All brood swarms have an initiative of 4.

Synapse Creatures:
Any Swarm containing one or more Synapse creatures gains +2 to any activation roll and +1 to any rally roll. Synapse creatures can never be suppressed. Swarms containing one or more Synapse creatures gain the ?And They Shall Know No Fear? rule. ??Synapse creatures are also immune to the effect of Blast Markers.??

Voracious:
The Hive Mind is eager to overwhelm and consume prey, attempting to devour all who stand before it. To represent this, Tyranid swarms gain a +1 modifier to their activation test rolls when attempting Engage actions.

Special Rule - T1.1.2 Tyranid Xenobiology
The Tyranids do not use any form of technology in the normal sense of the word; they have no factories or training facilities, but, instead, create all their weapons and creatures through purely biological processes. Some might see this as a weakness, but it allows the Tyranids to adapt to new challenges and replace losses with frightening speed. The following special rules describe these processes.

Regeneration: Some extremely large Tyranid creatures are covered inside and out with symbiotic creatures that heal wounds, repair damaged tissue, and stem the flow of vital bodily fluids. This makes Tyranid war engines extremely dangerous foes; an unwary Titan Princeps may think he has inflicted a mortal wound only to have that same creature rear up and attack. During the Rally Phase, a Tyranid war engine with the regeneration special ability rolls a number of D6 equal to half its starting damage capacity, rounded up. For each roll of 5+ the war engine regains one of its lost DC. Successful rolls can only be used to replace a war engine's lost DC. Finally, regeneration may not be used to bring a war engine back to life.

Spawning: One of the most terrifying things about fighting Tyranids is that there seems to be no end to the number of creatures in the army. Even if an attack is stopped, more Tyranids will soon appear to renew it. Spawning allows the Tyranid player to return Brood creature units to play that have been killed, removed from play, or held in reserve.

Spawning happens after Rally tests. Roll 1D3 per 1000 points being played (rounding to nearest 1000). No formation may spawn more than 4 units. Spawned units may be added to any swarm, not just the one they were originally assigned to.

Each Brood creature has a spawning cost based upon its general availability to the Tyranid army as a whole. Brood creatures have "Brood (x)" in their notes where "x" equals the number of spawn points required to return the creature to play. All spawned units must be placed within 5cm of any Synapse creature from that swarm. They may not be placed in the zone of control of enemy units or in impassable terrain. Not all spawn points must be used and any extras are discarded. Only infantry Brood creatures may be spawned in this manner.

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Shoel

Post subject: Rags KISS approach

Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:17 am

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I like this KISS method, I've stayed away from the tyranids due to the rules heavy lists.

But one thing that I can not keep shut about is the spawning phase thats been under disscussion.
Why don't we just make it a part of rallying? Preferably the same roll (somewhat like void shields, you roll to rally and can either raise shields or remove Blasmarkers. Tyranids would spawn and/or remove blastmarkers). That way it's not really a new rule but an adaptation of an existing rule. You could still add bonuses for nexus creatures. And placing blastmarkers would still have an effect as it would stop/hinder spawning.

/Staffan

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BlackLegion

Post subject: Rags KISS approach

Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:42 am

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Wasn't spawning = void shields-system be tried before?

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ragnarok

Post subject: Rags KISS approach

Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 4:37 pm

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Sorry I missed this for so long.

You got it all right, as far as I can see, apart form this bit.

(Dobbsy @ Apr. 07 2008,12:49)

QUOTE

In the End Phase, ??after spawning, synapse swarms may be reorganized.

??First, any Brood creatures out of coherency are removed from play and then any Brood creatures that are within control range of one Synapse group become part of its synapse swarm. If any Brood creatures are within control range of two or more Synapse Groups then the Brood creatures may join any one of the Synapse Groups, as decided by the Tyranid player. To avoid confusion, it is recommended that the units in doubt be turned to face the swarm they belong to.??

There is no control range or going to ground. They behave exactly like formations from other armies. They get removed if they are out of formation after an action and so on.

Being in range of more than one synpase creature doesn't allow them to switch swarms.

i think the bit about sunpase creatures not being effected by BMs was to stop them being allocated a BM to unsurpress another uni in the formation.

For example if a formation has 4 biovores a tyrant and 2BM, then two 'vores will be surpressed, no matter where in the formation the tyrant is.

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Dobbsy

Post subject: Rags KISS approach

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 12:25 am

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Brainstorm here:

What if you spawn back the number spawn points equal to removed BMs?

e.g

20 termagants and 3 Tyranid warriors in a swarm take 12 kills.

11 gants and 1 warrior get killed giving them 13 BMs. (12+1 for being fired on)

They have ATSKNF meaning they aren't broken

In the End Phase they need 3 or better to rally (initiative 4+ and +1 to rally for Synapse)

They pass their rally and remove half ?the BMs = 7 rounding

They get to return 7 points of spawn...
This would result in an overall loss of 5 units if you replace only 'gants (being 1 spawn point each). Killing 12 and getting back 7 kind of still seems like a rolling tide and compensates for them having no armour.

Would this work?

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ragnarok

Post subject: Rags KISS approach

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:11 am

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Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:43 pm
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Would they be removing BMs as well. If so, then it would be unbeatable.

If they don't remove BMs then theswarm will be hard to beat, but not unstoppable.

Also would you still use spawn points? So a carnifex will still cost 3 points to spawn back.

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Dobbsy

Post subject: Rags KISS approach

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:05 pm

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Well I figured each BM removed would mean you get one spawn point. Remember you remove half the number of BMs when you rally - not all of them. So if you lose 10 gaunts you get 11 BMs meaning 6 BM removed when you rally. Which means you still have BMs on you just not as many. You'd obviously have the option not to spawn into a rallying swarm if you chose. And yeah, my thoughts were that if you remove 6 BMs you can put in 6 termagants or 2 Carnifex.

Even in a 20 strong swarm you'd be "soaking fire" then only spawning back a little bit over half your losses - and only if you put back 1 unit per spawn point as a carnifex would be reducing your swarm size due to it's spawn cost being higher, of course. ?This is all provided you actually rally..... And that is the weakness and the way swarms become killed off. If you fail to rally you just lost half your swarm. Add in modifiers for rallying just like the main rules (enemy within 30cm etc) and it could become difficult to rally given a 4+ initiative(even with a +1 to rally for a synapse) for basic infantry swarms.

It would kind of work like armour I guess but in a reverse process kind of way - meaning you have no armour(gaunts/gants anyway) but casualties are somewhat soaked by replenishment.

I don't know, maybe this would only work if they didn't have ATSKNF. I'm not sure.

When you say unbeatable Rags can you explain a little more? An example perhaps? cheers

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ragnarok

Post subject: Rags KISS approach

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:13 pm

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(Dobbsy @ Apr. 09 2008,23:05)

QUOTE

When you say unbeatable Rags can you explain a little more? An example perhaps? cheers

Sorry unbeatable is a bit harsh. what I meant was that the swarm will almost never break to firepower, especially if it has ATSKNF.

I have been playing with the numbers on excel and replacing units and removing BM (ie if you rally with 6BM and remove 3 BM and rplace 3 units) gives twice the % increase on normal rallyin as just regaining units (without removing BMs.

How good it is is dependant on the in ital number of BMs needed to rally. with the % improvement per Brally pip being equal to 1/initial number of BM needed to break the formtaion for replacing units but keeping BMs

and 1/initial number of BM needed to break the formtaion for replacing units and removing BMs

I haven't gone beyound the first iteration, so replacing units but keeping BMs, could fail after sveral rounds.

I hope I have made sense. If not I can pass on the excel formula if you want.

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Dobbsy

Post subject: Rags KISS approach

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:24 pm

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Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:24 am
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what I meant was that the swarm will almost never break to firepower, especially if it has ATSKNF

I'm curious, would a swarm ever break to firepower with ATSKNF?
Afterall, a 20-strong swarm takes 9 kills (9+1 BM) = Broken, if the formation is a normal formation. If it's ATSKNF then it remains unbroken....

What if we removed ATSKNF? Would this upset your iteration of the rules? It would certainly make Nids more like standard armies given they act that way during the Activation phase.... It may also give the opponent a chance to actually kill off swarms a bit easier.

or

What if we return half the #units vs BM removed? I'm no maths wiz I admit that

I'm just looking for a way to simplify spawning basically.

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ragnarok

Post subject: Rags KISS approach

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:55 am

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I have had a swarm beoken by firepower a few times. It normally takes a lot, but it can be done, that or snipe the synpase.

the ATSKNF on massive swarms was to reflect the fact that they will just charge through several artillery barrages to get to you, and not notice. However when they get into combat they normally have more BMs than the enemy and half the swarm will be dead.

Removing ATSKNF weakens the armour swrams and independant swarms too much, they normally have between 3 and 8 units, so will break too easily for nids.

The spawing in KISS is quite simple. In a normal 3K game roll 3D3 and return that number of gaunts, or maybe a fex or two.

The longest part of it is chosing what to return where, but you will always have that in spawning.

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