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Anyone got a review of the French rules?
Chroma
 Post subject: Anyone got a review of the French rules?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 2:27 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 03 Jul. 2009, 14:17 )

Because their instinctive behaviour would be to stick together as a swarm?

Do you have a reference for that?  I've read of such creatures attacking each other on occasion.  But the 40k rules don't mirror that in any way, despite it being a "common" concept spoken of in the flavour text.  So, which do we follow?

You choose to ignore the second part of that sentence which states 'unless they can find another Synapse nexus', in order to present my words as hyperbole.

Pot and Kettle?


I take issue with your statement of "instantly", which implies immediate removal upon loss of Synapse; instead of "In the End Phase, after the Synapse-less swarm has been potentially able to act."

In all openness, I'd love to get rid of the whole "go to ground" concept; I believe I even proposed iniative modifiers and such for Synapse/No Synapse long ago.  *laugh*

And to BlackLegion, Brood creatures all had their own "spawn values" in older versions of the list and this was an attempt to streamline things.  I believe players still do spawn Gaunts and other LVs and not just Gargoyles and Raveners exclusively.




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Chroma
 Post subject: Anyone got a review of the French rules?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 2:29 pm 
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Quote: (BlackLegion @ 03 Jul. 2009, 14:20 )

As swarm/hive/herd/pack creatures they tend to stick together and act together.

But the only thing that makes Brood Creatures "swarm/hive/herd/pack" creatures is the will of the Hive Mind... when that connection is disrupted, that cohesion breaks down.




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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Anyone got a review of the French rules?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 2:36 pm 
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[quote="Chroma,03 Jul. 2009, 15:29 "][/quote]
And to BlackLegion, Brood creatures all had their own "spawn values" in older versions of the list and this was an attempt to streamline things.  I believe players still do spawn Gaunts and other LVs and not just Gargoyles and Raveners exclusively.

Ah sorry forgot that it is now streamlined. Then discard this (X) in my proposal and replace it with the spawning points table of the current list.


But the only thing that makes Brood Creatures "swarm/hive/herd/pack" creatures is the will of the Hive Mind... when that connection is disrupted, that cohesion breaks down.
Only if the overarching Hive Node (= Norn Queen) of the whole Tyranid presence of the planet is destroyed the swarm/hive/herd/pack-mentality is disrupted as well.

In Warriors of Ultramar the Imperium had to destroy all three Hive Ships in order to have any disruptive effect on the Tyranids at the planet. Only after the last Norn Queen was killed the Tyranids fell into disarray and where easy pickings because they could be killed individually.
The loss of a Hive Tyrant earlier in the battle hadn't had that much of an effect.




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Anyone got a review of the French rules?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 2:38 pm 
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Do you have a reference for that?  I've read of such creatures attacking each other on occasion.  And the 40k rules don't mirror that in any way, despite it being a "common" concept spoken of in the flavour text.  So, which do we follow?


I've only read of that happening twice, both times in the complete absence of a Hive Mind nexus from an entire Solar System-sized area.

All other indications (especially the Warhammer 40,000 rules) point to the Hive Mind being able to maintain a weak control over its creatures when they're not within range of a local nexus, as long as there's a nexus reasonably close by.

I take issue with your statement of "instantly", which implies immediate removal upon loss of Synapse; instead of "In the End Phase, after the Synapse-less swarm has been potentially able to act."
Redact the word instantly and my sentence stands then.

In all openness, I'd love to get rid of the whole "go to ground" concept; I believe I even propose iniative modifiers and such for Synapse/No Synapse long ago.  *laugh*
Well, I honestly think it could be a more suitable, and consistent, mechanic.

You could even have a tier system of initiative ratings to replace the 'go to ground' penalty, something like:


Any formation that contains Gaunts is initiative 5+
Any formation that contains Zoanthropes, Carnifexes, Gargoyles or Raveners is initiative 3+
Any formation that contains Tyranid Warriors is initiative 2+
Any formation that contains Hive Tyrants or Dominatrices is initiative 1+

Or something like that anyway.

So a formation that suffers the loss of its Hive Tyrant goes down a pip or two of initiative, depending on its composition.

That could then be consistently applied across the whole army list as one blanket behavioural rule, each tier representing that type of creature's natural level of connection to the Hive Mind.




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Ginger
 Post subject: Anyone got a review of the French rules?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 4:19 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 03 Jul. 2009, 14:38 )

You could even have a tier system of initiative ratings to replace the 'go to ground' penalty, something like:


Any formation that contains Gaunts is initiative 5+
Any formation that contains Zoanthropes, Carnifexes, Gargoyles or Raveners is initiative 3+
Any formation that contains Tyranid Warriors is initiative 2+
Any formation that contains Hive Tyrants or Dominatrices is initiative 1+

Or something like that anyway.

So a formation that suffers the loss of its Hive Tyrant goes down a pip or two of initiative, depending on its composition.

That could then be consistently applied across the whole army list as one blanket behavioural rule, each tier representing that type of creature's natural level of connection to the Hive Mind.

Variable initiatives are a reasonable idea in principle, but possibly need to be simpler. Under the current rules this effectively breaks down to Synapse led swarms and "others", with the assault / rally modifiers. We can split "others" into Independant and 'leaderless swarms' and give them different values if it is felt more appropriate to keep 'leaderless swarms' on the table.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Anyone got a review of the French rules?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:11 pm 
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Quote: (Hena @ 03 Jul. 2009, 21:02 )

...all the solutions to this have been worse than what currently is.

Well, that's just your opinion, not an objective fact, just like my own opinion is not an objective fact.

Chroma's the one with the task of staying objective here.

I also agree with Mephiston. This is tempest in a teacup.

The small issue barely worthy of attention (teacup) being the entire Tyranid army list?

Also I've yet to see a single reference to fluff why your and Zombos opinion is somehow more correct.
I've quoted background examples several times, as well as referring to BFG/Warhammer 40,000 rules several times.

For example my post just two posts before the one of yours I'm replying to opens with a look at the background.




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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Anyone got a review of the French rules?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:27 pm 
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And i stated one occurence (Warriors of Ultramar) where Tyranids aren't cast in absolute disarray, where they where no threat at all, as a Hive Tyrant was killed. They where a bit confused at this pecific section of the battle but nothing to last. Only after the LAST Norn Queen/Hive Ship was killed was the link to the Hive Mind completely severed and the Tyranids easy target practice.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Anyone got a review of the French rules?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:33 pm 
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You just say generalities which is exactly which you don't accept from others if that were to contradict yours.

No I referred to two specific instances, once for the 'planet of nothing but Hormagaunts' referenced in the 4th edition (current) Codex, and once for the destruction of all three Hive Ships above the planet MacGragge (sic). In both cases the Tyranids become entirely disorganised (although seemingly still incredibly deadly for the 'planet of Hormagaunts' as they are described as still attacking everything in sight, even each other), but they had lost all Synapse connection within a solar-system sized area, not just locally.



I've pointed two exact places where the Tyranids lose their ability to be a cohesive fighting force and are just slaughtered when synapse is severed.
Please indicate those quotes again, as I appear to have missed them.


And to the point, fluff is important, 40k rules are not. This is not 40k and it should not be.

The background is often written to reflect and expand on the Warhammer 40,000 rules ; without the Warhammer 40,000 rules there would be no background to refer to.

That doesn't mean that Warhammer 40,000 should be the only source for inspiration, far from it in fact because it's a clunky broken game for kids, but it does serve to inform us in specific cases.

The Warhammer 40,000 rules tell us that Defilers aren't artillery, and the NetERC follows the 40k rules.
The Warhammer 40,000 rules tell us that a Land Raider Redeemer is armed with flame based weaponry that is more powerful yet shorter ranged than a Hellhound's flame weapon, and the NetERC follows the 40k rules.
The Warhammer 40,000 rules tell us that Chaos Space Marines are just like Space Marines except they don't have the And They Shall Know No Fear Special Rule, so Epic follows the 40k rules...
...etc.

In this specific case, as the background is contradictory at best, the Warhammer 40,000 rules tell us that Tyranid creatures out of Synapse range take 'leadership/initiative' tests, and if they pass them they may still obey the commands of the Hive Mind (the player), but if they fail them they may only either 'stay still and shoot' or 'make a single (retreat) move'...

...the Warhammer 40,000 rules tell us that the Tyranid creatures remain on the battlefield, albeit under a weaker influence from the Hive Mind, and continue to follow the Hive Mind's orders every time the Hive Mind manages to make contact with them... if the Hive Mind cannot reach them then the creatures may either shoot at an enemy, or make a retreat move (and the Hive Mind / Player gets to make the choice as to which will happen)...

...a nigh perfect mirror image of having an initiative rating penalty, and the 'hold' Special Order.


======


With the above in mind, it's no surprise that the French went for this mechanic.




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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Anyone got a review of the French rules?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:40 pm 
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The background is written to reflect and expand on the Warhammer 40,000 rules ; without the Warhammer 40,000 rules there would be no background to refer to.


Uhmm shouldn't it be the other way around? First army designers come up with background information and a vague idea what a new model/unit should do and then they come up with rules for it. So the rules are a direct expression of the background. Rules enhance the background and give hard facts how the background is implemented on the tabletop.
Yes the other way is possible but hardly the norm?




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Anyone got a review of the French rules?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:46 pm 
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Quote: (BlackLegion @ 03 Jul. 2009, 21:40 )

The background is written to reflect and expand on the Warhammer 40,000 rules ; without the Warhammer 40,000 rules there would be no background to refer to.


Uhmm shouldn't it be the other way around? First army designers come up with background information and a vague idea what a new model/unit should do and then they come up with rules for it.
Yes the other way is possible but hardly the norm?

I reckon it's rather more of a gestalt process, where one element informs the other until the two are an inseperable whole.

Space Marines have ATSKNF because they are brave in the background, and they behave bravely in the background because in Warhammer 40,000 they know no fear... where the Games Design is good, one becomes indivisible from the other.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Anyone got a review of the French rules?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:52 pm 
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Macragge fighting when marines moved to northern pole. Again it was described as simple stuff.

And as I'm sure you know, there were no Synapse creatures left in the entire solar system at that point.

Oh, Redeemer suggestion is at the moment shorter ranged Hellhound. And since that's not finished it could change if required.
It'll only change if you create a Land Raider Hendeemer.
Redeemers have a shorter ranged weapon than Hellhounds because that's how the rules are. 95% of weapon range comparisons in Epic stack up correctly to their 40k counterparts...


I have no interest in playing an Epic that doesn't properly reflect the background and rules of Warhammer 40,000... and in this specific case Epic doesn't represent either of the above properly.

ATKNF has almost nothing in resemblance to 40k rules of it. It represents what the ideal of it is, which is tenacity of Marines under fire.
And their tenacity isn't representing in the Warhammer 40,000 rule that lets them automatically rally after making a short fallback/regroup move (on the order of 5cm in Epic)?

....




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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Anyone got a review of the French rules?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:05 pm 
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And as I'm sure you know, there were no Synapse creatures left in the entire solar system at that point.

I'm sure you ment with Synapse creature you meant Hive Ships (where the Norn Queens sit). Without a Norn Queen the Hive Mind can't even reach Hive Tyrants or Dominatrices.
It's like the electricity. Cut a a main relais (Norn Queen)and whole sections have no current anymore regardless if there are still minor relaises or no.

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