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Fearless Biotitans
Markconz
 Post subject: Fearless Biotitans
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:28 am 
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(Hena @ Feb. 21 2007,18:02)
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We did the "big bugs" things in the last time in Chromas WIPs. Then Jaldon cut it all out. Frankly it was a good thing to do and I'd rather not go through the same again. So big no from me. Also the JJ vision for nids is "Horde of teeth and claw" and we should not start to pick it apart. 40k can have what ever styles it has. Epic should not follow it.

I agree that it should be hordes of teeth and claw, but it doesn't make any sense to me to make some bio-titans are fearless and others not - it doesn't seem very characterful at all for bio-titans. I also don't see that reinstating fearless precludes having a horde of bugs.

IIRC ditching fearless from hierophants was not part of JJ's original vision.

This issue also has nothing to do with 40k.

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Markconz
 Post subject: Fearless Biotitans
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 5:32 am 
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(Hena @ Feb. 22 2007,03:22)
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Odd, I just checked the v3 list (good to have backups) and no, no fearless on hierophant. There isn't even one in hydraphant (but it has "Immune to panic" what ever that is). For reference though there is no fearless at all in that list (but there is that immune to panic on dom and synapse node).

Really???  :O  Damn I was trying to find my V3 list too. Is there not some special rule in the list that replaces fearless or something?

One thing I was wondering - is reducing armour on heirophants to 5+ RA instead of ditching fearless a possibility? That way normal units have a much better chance of actually stopping the little phants instead of having to rely  on TK.

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Dobbsy
 Post subject: Fearless Biotitans
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 5:45 am 
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Odd, I just checked the v3 list (good to have backups) and no, no fearless on hierophant. There isn't even one in hydraphant (but it has "Immune to panic" what ever that is). For reference though there is no fearless at all in that list (but there is that immune to panic on dom and synapse node).

So then there's no real reason for it not being fearless other than a previous list not even including it? Also IIRC aren't earlier/later versions riddled with typos??

And cost wise. No way would that thing under 300 points with fearless. 325 would be cheapest to even start thinking about. Fearless, Unstoppable, 4+ RA and WE is something that sets the price quite high to start with.
Wow! So 2 DC (and a weapon type here and there) is worth 75-50 points?
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Ilushia
 Post subject: Fearless Biotitans
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 8:16 am 
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This may, or may not, be the correct place to note this... But... Has anyone considered adding to the Unstoppable rule: "Units with the Unstoppable rule may not make withdraw moves"? That seems to solve one of the largest complaints I've heard about the Tyranids, that they can functionally walk through a unit they are defeated by and assaulting one which has yet to activate can actually help their army.
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Ilushia
 Post subject: Fearless Biotitans
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:32 am 
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Hmm. I suppose that's true. It's been so long since I've played I'd forgotten that hackdown occurs as much as 15 cm away from the unit, not just inside their ZoC... On the other hand, this could go along with making all the Synapse creatures Fearless, which would fit well with the idea that if they lose the battle the lesser creatures are scattered from the field as the will of the hivemind is momentarily overcome by heavy loses, leaving the synapse creatures to rebuild the brood quickly before being wiped out. But that probably wouldn't work very well either. I don't know, it just seems like the easy way to solve it would be write some kind of rule into the Tyranid list which prevents them from moving through enemies. But that would be adding yet another special rule to the list... By the same means it'd seem odd to prohibit Fearless units from moving specifically either, as that would lead to times where your Synapse couldn't move while the rest could.

I like the principle of Fearless Bio-Titans, but the only way I can see them as being at all fair is to somehow limit them from moving after losing an assault. Otherwise there is no possible outcome for an assault that is NOT beneficial to a Tyranid player. Either the enemy breaks and flees, and now has to rally from broken. Or they lose, and essentially get 2 free moves in any direction they feel like to set up for an assault next turn or later this turn if they've not already activated... But you all already knew that.

The only solutions I can think of are things like "An Unstoppable creature may not move over enemy bases for any reason except war-engine barging" or something similar, which prevents Bio-Titans from fleeing through the enemy which just broke them (Though they can still potentially flee laterally) and if surrounded would prevent them from fleeing at all. But that doesn't seem like it'd fit at all. To be honest, I like the idea that Unstoppable creatures don't get Withdraw moves, but as Hena points out my idea doesn't really work well with non-fearless creatures...
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Lightbringer
 Post subject: Fearless Biotitans
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:10 am 
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RE Bio-titans losing assaults and withdrawing.....

Our group has a house rule .... all withdrawl moves must be made directly away from the formation that won the assault (or words to this effect). This still throws up some odd situations and is by no way perfect but at least both players know approximately (before the assault) where the loser would have to withdraw to.

I think I will try playtesting both a non-fearless hierophant at 275 points and a fearless version (same stats otherwise) at 325 points.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Fearless Biotitans
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:35 am 
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(Lightbringer @ Feb. 21 2007,09:49)
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I have only once lost a Heirophant as a result of hackdowns and I have to take my hat off to my opponent for assaulting it in the first place. Think of hackdowns more as the beast getting hamstringed in the way elephants were in ancient times by skirmishing troops. Its not that the elephant was scared of a human but more that the beastie got outsmarted and hit repeatedly in its achillies heal.

Wow!

I really like this analogy.

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Markconz
 Post subject: Fearless Biotitans
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:40 am 
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(Chroma @ Feb. 26 2007,22:35)
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(Lightbringer @ Feb. 21 2007,09:49)
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I have only once lost a Heirophant as a result of hackdowns and I have to take my hat off to my opponent for assaulting it in the first place. Think of hackdowns more as the beast getting hamstringed in the way elephants were in ancient times by skirmishing troops. Its not that the elephant was scared of a human but more that the beastie got outsmarted and hit repeatedly in its achillies heal.

Wow!

I really like this analogy.

That process is surely already counted in the attacks going at the beast in the first place, and if it's not, then why shouldn't it apply equally to the other tyranid WE (and other titans for that matter)?

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Chroma
 Post subject: Fearless Biotitans
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:42 am 
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(Markconz @ Feb. 26 2007,23:40)
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That process is surely already counted in the attacks going at the beast in the first place, and if it's not, then why shouldn't it apply equally to the other tyranid WE (and other titans for that matter)?

Cuz the other ones are more cunning?  *laugh*

I liked it because it was the first explanation I've seen that, while I may not completely agree with it, was certainly plausible for "hack down hits" on the Hierophant.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Fearless Biotitans
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:21 am 
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'Immune to panic' was the original name of the rule that later became 'fearless'.

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Lightbringer
 Post subject: Fearless Biotitans
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:49 pm 
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It could simply be that fearless bio-titans are more cunning as Chroma states or that their weak spot is out of reach,out of sight or better protected.

A drunken war elephant was more 'fearless' than a sober one even though they were the same physically.

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