Agreed, but first a 'core' Tyranid list needs to be finished. As all variant lists will still take it's lead in terms of existing unit stats, Tyranid special rules, etc.

Given the period of time the current nid list has been developing, do you really see it becoming "finished" any time soon?

If so then sure, focus soley on it. If not, then there's no harm exploring side lists which can be kept updated with the changes to the main list. Even Chroma has posted some varient nid lists.

_________________
http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread

To my understanding all Hive Fleets are linked through the Hive Mind. SO they can share the same genetic pool.

But as i said earlier: Lets sort out the specialrules of the current list. New units can always be added to future lists.

_________________
We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/

Not all fleets are linked, each has its own collective Hive Mind, and some Hive Minds have been known to attack other fleets in order to gain resources.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Iirc it is believed that those Hive Fleets which attacked each other have only weak or severed links to the Hive Mind (the collective Tyranid race one).

_________________
We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/

Again, we're at a disconnect on what we both think the 'Hive Mind' is. I don't think it's some all encompassing Tyranipedia with the capacity to transfer genetic codes across galaxies to what is presumably a biological printer.

I agree with E&C there have been circumstances of Hive Fleets cannibalising, they consume the weaker fleet, gaining any benefits and destroying any detritus.

The 'Hive Mind' seems to be the collective consciousness as an 'effect' rather than a 'cause'- the more Tyranids in a vicinity, the stronger the Shadow in the Warp, the psychic collection of their impulses.

I don't think Leviathan and Kraken are in communication, especially not at the level of e-mailing each other full genetic codes for new species.

The more you think of the Tyranid organisation as an evolved effect, rather than a human-like command and control structure the more plausible it becomes.
That the Hive Mind evolved as Tyranids developed psychic powers and grew stronger as a unifying effect but is still just a biological function, makes more sense to me, than the idea that Mr Hive Mind was sitting there all along just waiting for Tyranids to be led by him.

The impression I get from the background is that the Hive Mind is one single very spread out thing (that there are not multiple Hive Minds), some level of perhaps slow communication allow branches could well we biologically evolved and would be an advantage. No need for a Mr Hive Mind for either of these

Isn't there a theory that all the separate hive fleets so far are just the first small tendrils of an onrushing mass, that they are connected, but further back than is visible from our galaxy yet? Course that would mean all the inhabitants of the galaxy are doomed in a few centuries of mega-death and tyranid chomping but hey that's the grim-dark world they set out for us kiddies.

I agree that the core list comes first (Which at the moment would be the Kraken Fleet as  E&C's excellent variant list is based on some of the rules here and Leviathan isn't fully fleshed out until the next 40k Tyranid codex with Leviathan seemingly the main focus)

The thing I'm really aiming at is which creatures are in which fleets from a thematic view. I think we can agree that Behemoth is static in creature composition. Then it's just a matter of crossover between Kraken splinters, Leviathan and the new Fleets. I still think more information is needed and generally go along with new fleets have all the creatures from previous fleets. I think thats the easiest solution (so Kraken splinters don't get Leviathan creatures).

Assuming the NetEA Tyranid list stays as Kraken, then I think that list should have a thematic composition section (in the final finished form) for Behemoth (but not a variant list)
Then the Leviathan list takes over for the newer creatures (assuming there are no surprises like them turning up in a Kraken splinter fleet or discovery of some instantaneous galactic communication link between different fleets)

@Jeridian: With you resoning each Hive Fleet would be a race of itself. There would be no Tyranid race.
One Hive Fleet would have Gaunts but as there is no communication between other Hive Fleets, as you say, then no other Hive Fleet would have developed Gaunts but something completely different.

_________________
We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/

In a way true, Tyranid is nothing more than a designation by the Imperium that encompasses a vast numer of 'sub-species'. If you saw a Ravener and a Genestealer, would you call them the same race?
At that point what defines race, evidently not species?



But they all have Gaunts, at some point in the past they where one fleet.

Ants in the US and ants in France are very similar (but with divergences), and follow similar organisation. Does this mean they are still in communication?

At some point in the Tyranid past (undoubtably in another galaxy) Fleet X expanded to the point it had to diverge and separate in order to sustain all bodies- to attack multiple worlds in different systems as one system couldn't sustain the whole fleet.
At some point the Tyranids were small enough in number to be a single fleet, indeed, at some point they were likely just one sub-sect of animals on a single world.

These split fleets eventually 'set sail' for the Imperial galaxy, Behemoth hitting first, etc.
Common species like Gaunts, Warriors, etc evidently date from a time when the Tyranid fleet or species was singular.
Behemoth was annihilated, so that evolutionary tail died.
Kraken was the main one in 4th Ed and earlier, when it was defeated tendrils split into separate fleets, carrying the common species, but also evolving new ones like the Red Terror, etc.
These Splinter Fleets explain my position clearly, they could quite easily all have the same Gaunts from an earlier mother fleet, but be separate fleets.


I should stress that the above is 30% background and 70% my extrapolation of the background. The background itself being 90% Imperial conjecture.
I like to think of our conversations as two wily Ordo Xenos Inquisitors putting forward pet theories on the Tyranid menace to the Conclave-  

I'm completely with Jeridian on this; the common types could have evolved before the nids split into seperate hive fleets. I see no evidence of communication between the fleets, nor of a single "hive mind" unifying fleets.

The idea of different hive fleets and the fast evolution of the tyranids was invented in 40k to explain away the redesign in the tyranid models. A hive fleet Behemoth "Screamer Killer" and a hive fleet leviathan "Carnifex" may be basically the same creature but they look pretty different. We can assume a common ancestor was in both fleets when they split, then they seperately evolved down the years. Ditto gaunts, raveners etc which have all had model redesigns representing their appearance in different fleets.

This allows us to go down a path where one list uses the old epic tyranid models and units and represents one of the older hive fleets, whereas another list represents a hive fleet representing the more recent 40k tyranid model and unit styles.

Tyranids are one of the few areas where the older designs can still be considered current, just from a different hive fleet. That's why the 40k designers generally pick a new main hive fleet each time they redo the codex, reflecting the changing style of the models over the years.

_________________
http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread

Aye, the Tyranids suffer a similar design fault to Chaos.

Space Marines, Tau Fire Warriors, Eldar Aspects- they are each the same creature wearing the same armour carrying the same weapons, you can represent each with one model.

Tyranids evolve different creatures on a near daily basis, theoretically each brood of Gaunts should be slightly genetically different to another to adapt to the current battlefield.
GW can't afford to produce infinite models for it, so they have one model as a 'generic' version.

Why the Chaos comparison? Well every Chaos daemons or mutation should be different, not all Khorne Bloodletters are clones of each other. Each would be different depending on the whims and thoughts that spawned them.
Again, GW can only produce one model as a 'generic' version.

I guess I'm trying to say Epic should only produce one unit stat as a 'generic' version and let the Epic players select which models they'd like to represent it with. I really don't like the idea of getting into minute detail over every sub-species and trying to enforce that at Epic level.

Lets ignore models for the moment.

How do you define which creatures are common and which are new species created in this galaxy?

There is no real concrete evidence stating where various creatures come from, they could be ancient in stasis, the genetic code not deemed necessary at the moment or hyper-evolution in response to a threat.

Assuming hyper-evolution and that no communication occurs between fleets it means that there are a lot of creatures that simply won't appear in other fleets.

Kraken in particular has seen the emergence of a number of creatures designed to counter enemies with ranged weapons and supposed incorporation of alien DNA. Behemoth is missing a lot of creatures including Bio-Titans. Does that mean Zoanthropes, Biovores, Tyrant Guard, Ranged Carnifexes, Trygons, Hierodules and Hierophants are all Kraken only and will not appear in Leviathan.

The way I see it that leaves several options
1) Those creatures don't appear in Leviathan
2) The Tyranids do have long range inter fleet communications
3) All the creatures have common ancestors so appear in every fleet as a response leading to Tyranids not actually evolving at all, just picking ready designed creatures from a list possessed by all fleets. Then there is no point having distinct fleets at all, they all have the same creatures.

I'm going to show my fluff ignorance here, but is there any 'evidence' that the 'nids have a higher intelligence directing them or are they truly just moving through the universe doing what they have to too survive?

If its the latter then I see no reason why inter fleet comm's would exist unless the two fleets came into a range were one or the other conciousness would take over, effectively absorbing the weaker hive mind.

Very often the background states that a creature was only seen after the Hive Fleets had spent some time in this galaxy, and in some cases even speculates a genetic link (Biovores from Ork DNA, Tyrant Guard from Marine DNA, etc).

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter