It is the same 'problem' when 2 Orkish Boyz bands intermingle, or any two same formations.

Just paint small differences on the Harridan's Gargoyles.

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They could well be painted or modelled differently surely e.g. Harridan ones on clear plastic rods flying up in the air. Even if they're not painted just mark the base with a little bit of blu-tack or something if it's a Harridan one, simple enough to add or take away if it changes. It's not like there aren't a number of other armies where multiple units of identical troops can have intermingling identity problems.

You just keep count.  

The Harrassment Swarm's Gargoyle count can *only* go down, if you started with six, and you lost three to enemy fire, then you've got three left.

If you really want, painting them a different colour *can* be used.  How is it any more confusing than when Ork Warbands or IG Infantry Companies are intermingled?  You just need to pay a little more attention is all, *especially* when you get into such a sitation.

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I think it contravenes 'counts as' more importantly. A model represents a single stat line- that's the core of 'counts as', your opponent knows what he's facing.

Gargoyles are identical models, but can be radically different rules wise in the same army.

Paint it differently is somewhat obvious, till you conside these independant chaps can be spawned back.

Though that could be fixed by saying no spawning back anything from an independant brood?

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As Jeridan says, it breaks the 'counts as' rule, and you cannot even paint them differently because as TRC says *independant* gargoyles can be spawned back as a *brood* gargoles.

You can declare gargoyles as both Brood and Independant, and further that Brood trumps independant, which does at least comply with the rules, but this is also quite complex.

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They have the exact same stats.  How do they act "radically different"?

They're *all* Brood Gargoyles... but the *formations* they are in are different.  I'm not sure why this is such a hard concept for people.

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Because it's yet another level of complication that the list doesn't need.

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Yet the same rules apply to the Subterranean Swarm and there hasn't been a single complaint in this manner for them; should that formation be removed as well?

It's all spelled out in the rules, not as clear as it could be and I'm working on that, but assumptions were made and they're incorrect.

Just look at it this way:

Units in an Independent Swarm don't need Synapse, units in a Synapse Swarm *do* need Synapse.

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Units in an Independent Swarm don't need Synapse, units in a Synapse Swarm *do* need Synapse.

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And that's inconsistent, and whilst it may functionally work, it's not great games design IMHO.

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While the concept is relatively simple, I am just suggesting that it is nevertheless potentially capable of confusion, especially to newcomers and those less familiar with these intricacies. So depending on the Gargoyles formation it may or may not be removed at the end of the turn, but there is no outward sign that differentiates between them, and you have to check the situation of all Gargoyles.

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A very good example Chroma, but the point is that I use differently marked Wave Serpents (never falcons ) for precisely this reason. However, the Gargoyles must look identical because they can change status during the game which the Wave Serpents cannot do

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brood creatures need synapse in the background and 40k, yet suddenly in the ERC list, sometimes, some brood creatures don't.

That's not great games design, it's inconsistent with the background, with 40k, and with other editions of Epic.

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Wow, I was *pretty* sure I'd read that Gargoyles are sent forward in great flocks either alone or with Harridans... which are *not* Synapse Creatures in the background or 40k.

Raveners are also sent out "on their own" in a similar fashion.

It's represented by their Ld 10 statistic, so that they *can* act independently, but they also benefit if near Synapse creatures... so allowing two "modes" of operation in the broader scope of EPIC actually, to me, seems *more* consistent with the way such creatures are represented.

Technically, *Lictors* are Brood creatures, but their fearless ability in 40k kind of short-circuits that.

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