You can mix harridans and vitraters together? I thought they were independants or can you now group synapse and independants together end/start of turn?

So anyone tried using 4 of these things yet together?

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Chroma, I have to admit I'm guilty of this confusion too. The list isn't written cleanly in my mind - it's all a bit confusing the first time you read it. I'm not that keen on the two types of unit types for Rav, GG etc either. It just seems to make the list "bit-ty". If I pick up a list I prefer to be able to read the necessary rules clearly where they should be written not have to scan the whole document to work out a minor detail.

Not attacking you, just my 2 cents from a noob Nid player, FWIW.

It is clunky and overcomplicated that the same unit has different rules depending on how it is bought in the army list.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

I have to weigh in on the naysayers side on this one I'm afraid.

It is complicated/convoluted.

More specifically any one of the Nid rules is simple and easily memorable- when you pack in a dozen or more special rules and mix them together, it gets complex.


I could have a situation where my Harridan and Gargoyles intermingle with a Hive Tyrant, Gaunts and Gargoyles. I then have some Gargoyles that are Expendable, non-scoring and die with the Synapse, and some that are not Expendable, scoring and ignore Synapse- except they're identical models.

[joking]  Paint them differently  [/joking]

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So what would alternative be? Remove ability for independant harridans have gargoyles? Not good. Those are supposed to carry gargoyles. Force them to be with synapse creature? Again goes against fluff and would mean harridans are useful only with vituperator.

Alternatively of course you could remove whole destroyed if outside synapse rule if that's more what you like...

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Not saying you should do it but you could let the harridan spawn gargoylse as the final way

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General Plumer, 191x

What is confusing about the current list is that apparently many of the "independant" creatures have been listed together with the "Brood" creatures as 'Lesser' creatures. So Harridan, Lictors and Gene Stealers are also included in the same group and it seems that I have fallen foul of the same confusion. On closer inspections the Harridan does not have 'brood' attribute.

Basically the question revolves around the definition of "Brood" creatures that *must* be near synapse creatures, and the 'others' that do not suffer from this problem. The definition of synapse swarms and 'independant' formations is clear, but it definitely helped to have the different creatures segregated in the list.

So this brings us back to the original question. As Gargoyles are defined as "Brood" creatures, they must be deployed near a synapse and will disappear at the end of the turn if they are not in range of a Synapse creature.

However, putting gargoyles inside a Harridan raises a further question - do these units have to be moved with the synapse when it moves? Put another way, does being inside the Harridan amend the "brood" attribute allowing the Harridan to act independently?

This would all be resolved by making the Harridan a "brood" creature IMHO. Was that the original intention?

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Maybe you only check for stuff that is deployed? So if underground or being transported (ie when off board) cannot be removed in end turn for being out of synapse?

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'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
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General Plumer, 191x

What I think is being confused here is that "Independent" is a *formation* type, while "Brood" is a *creature* sub-type; there's no such thing as an "independent creature", only Independent Swarms.

From the Tyranid Swarms sub-rule:

Unless part of an Independent Swarm, Brood creatures out of control range are removed and any that are within control range of one Synapse Group become part of its Synapse Swarm.

Primarily "Brood" simply (*LAUGH*) means "spawnable", with the additional attributes of being "expendable" and requiring to be near Synapse creatures when in a Synapse Swarm.

Does that help at all?

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Hmm, I know what you are saying Chroma, but their deploment is also governed At the start of the game, the Tyranid player assigns Brood creatures to Synapse Groups, creating swarms. These swarms must be set up in legal formation using the instructions for the scenario. Additionally, Brood units must be placed within control range (15cm) of a Synapse creature from the swarm's Synapse Group. Brood units may also be held in reserve. During the Action Phase, a Synapse Swarm is treated like a normal formation.

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

From the "using the army" section:

Tyranid formations come in two types: Independent Swarms and Synapse Swarms.  Independent Swarms consist of specific creatures and options shown in the army list, while Synapse Swarms can be highly mutable.  Up to one third of the army's points may be spent on Independent Swarms.

So, in essence, those Gargoyles with the Harridan have already been "assigned", they're not coming from Brood groups.

But I will clear that up in the next version to be more specific.

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I think you need to have race rules in the front.
Then in the back with the GT army list any deployment rules.
So Brood in the special rules.
Independant and synapse swarms in the GT army list section.

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General Plumer, 191x

In which case you seem to be suggesting that the these 'independent' Gargoyles are not subject to the "brood" rules, even though they have that attribute. Won't that be even more confusing?

I think you are effectively intending that these Gargoyles are a *one-use* weapon of the Harridan (unless they end up near a swarm of course), so the introductory wording would be along the lines of

"broods must be assigned to synapses forming swarms or independent transport. At the end of the turn any broods outside synapse control go to ground (removed)"

And this also raises the question whether these 'independent' gargoyles come out of the 1/3 independant costs or not.

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

Surely the simplest solution would be to make the haridan synapse?

As Jeridian says, the idea of identical models following totally different rules is overcomplicated.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread