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Nid Spawning Ideas POLL
Original v9.0 rules 100%  100%  [ 3 ]
Total votes : 3

Nid Spawning Ideas POLL
pixelgeek
 Post subject: Nid Spawning Ideas POLL
PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 10:03 pm 
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Quote: (Dave @ 09 Aug. 2008, 13:35 )

But as that is not the case I'm strongly against letting the results of this poll determine the future path of this list.

What he said.

Anyone can vote. Not anyone can or will playtest games. Having the opinions of people that don't even play the army or test the lists effect the development of the army is ridiculous.

Are there even 12 people providing feedback based on test games?

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scarik
 Post subject: Nid Spawning Ideas POLL
PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 10:10 pm 
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Quote: ( Dave | Posted on 09 Aug. 2008 @ 21:21)

They do effect them in the normal way now (they suppress units and can break formations).


Let me be more clear.

That was a good argument to not let all brood creatures be Expendable since if the Synapse needs to spend more effort on them the more heavy the action then that's exactly like the standard command structure breaking down as it comes under fire and closes with the enemy.

In general I think Expendable is as bad an idea to throw about as Fearless is since it corrupts a core mechanic of the game.

That doesn't mean I'm not game to roast a few of them though, especially since their SC is Deathstrike bait. ^_^b

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jaldon454
 Post subject: Nid Spawning Ideas POLL
PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 7:39 am 
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If the entire community was testing these rules then I would say fine, go for it. But as that is not the case I'm strongly against letting the results of this poll determine the future path of this list. Stuff like this needs to be tested and felt out by someone before they should be allowed to weigh in.


We have been back and forth and back and forth, etc...anon...anon....
The poll results WILL determine the rule we will playtest FIRST. IF the playtesters feel that it becomes/is unworkable for x-y reasons then second place in the polls is given the next go.

Allowing the poll to decide is just giving us a more acceptable starting point, and I would like to start somewhere. In no way will the Poll results be considered the FINAL and ONLY spawning rule to be used and all others ignored as possible alternatives.

I would really have to be stupid to fight to keep the poll results as the ONLY spawning possibility if the rule itself was determined to be unworkable by the playtesters. I like to believe I am not stupid :oo:

The existing idea (v9.0) was not being accepted by the general playtesters, though it is in the poll, and no alternative was finding acceptance. The Poll will at least get us started somewhere.

In general I think Expendable is as bad an idea to throw about as Fearless is since it corrupts a core mechanic of the game.

I don't know if I understood this statement correctly, but are you saying expendable is 'bad' because it breaks the core mechanics of the game? If so then..............

(1) Almost all of the 'special rules' break the core game mechanics to one degree or another, that is why they are called special rules.

(2) The Nids are the single most alien of all the races in the WH40k universe, bar none. To reflect the 'endless wave of bugs' laid down by Jervis AND the Army background we either have to force players to buy a veratable horde of minis, or find another way to reflect it. In this case via special rules, more spcifically spawning and expendable.

(3) Would you consider the Ork 'Grot' rule outside the core mechanics of the game system? Expendable is a very simple variation of that rule. If the Expendable Rule breaks the core game mechanics of the game then so also does the Grot Rule, therefore by that set of criterion both rules should be gotten rid of, correct?

(4) Expendable falls far short of fearless in effect in the game as the Brood Creatures only advantage is they don't generate a BM when they are eliminated. They still count for everything else AND are cut down in assaults via the results of the final resolution and proximity to the enemy.. In some ways the Grot Rule is more effective in the game then expendable.

(5) IMHO the expendable rule not only works well, but it also allowed us to remove a host of other special rules trying to create the same effect, and puts the Nid army more in line with the way the game works then ever before. In effect the Nids now have far fewer special rules breaking the core mechanics then they did before. I feel this is a very good thing.

We gotta start somewhere folks and the poll will at least give us a starting point, and that's all.

Jaldon :p

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Dave
 Post subject: Nid Spawning Ideas POLL
PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 1:08 pm 
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Thanks for clarifying. That's fine, I didn't realize.

On the expendable. I agree. The loss of brood creatures shouldn't upset the Hive Mind.  That's what they are there for. Living ammunition just as the pdf says.

In 8.4 only the small stuff was expendable but Tyranids were able to ignore BMs with regards to suppression. With that gone now something is needed to reflect the fact that Tyranids do not respond to unit loss and morale like regular forces. Hence the expendable.

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: Nid Spawning Ideas POLL
PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 3:04 pm 
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Quote: (jaldon454 @ 09 Aug. 2008, 23:39 )

We have been back and forth and back and forth, etc...anon...anon....
The poll results WILL determine the rule we will playtest FIRST. IF the playtesters feel that it becomes/is unworkable for x-y reasons then second place in the polls is given the next go.

Same comment.

It doesn't change the fact that people who aren't testing the list are in control of how the testing process is working.

So if all the playtesters think an option is good but they are outweighed by people not familiar with the list then the testers have to play something they all think is a bad idea?

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jaldon454
 Post subject: Nid Spawning Ideas POLL
PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 6:28 pm 
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So if all the playtesters think an option is good but they are outweighed by people not familiar with the list then the testers have to play something they all think is a bad idea?


If all the playtesters think an option is good then that would be the one we would be working on. That is the problem, they don't. We are all over the place on this subject.

In effect anyone of the four systems presented will work (Ignoring for the moment that spawning numbers and brood numbers will still need tweeks). The big issue is the mechanics of carrying out the spawning, among the playtesters, not the results achieved at the end of the pipe.

Jaldon :p

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: Nid Spawning Ideas POLL
PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 7:06 pm 
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Quote: (jaldon454 @ 10 Aug. 2008, 10:28 )

If all the playtesters think an option is good then that would be the one we would be working on. That is the problem, they don't. We are all over the place on this subject.

Can you explain how then putting uninformed opinions into the mix makes the situation better?

Why doesn't the army champion just step in and make a "command decision"?

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: Nid Spawning Ideas POLL
PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 7:55 pm 
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Quote: (Hena @ 10 Aug. 2008, 11:29 )

Totally random values are probably too high and I dislike the fact that Tyrant and Warriors are totally equal in getting their fleshwall (this is actually one thing that gives a annoyance feeling in v9 system).

Well if we don't have weapons with D3 hsots in teh game then a random spawning system is probably way outside the ounds of what we find acceptable :-)

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jaldon454
 Post subject: Nid Spawning Ideas POLL
PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 8:12 pm 
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Can you explain how then putting uninformed opinions into the mix makes the situation better?

Why doesn't the army champion just step in and make a "command decision"?


IF the poll was just straight line numbers, and no comments were allowed then you would be correct. I wish to base the decision upon the poll and those comments, which is why I asked for them.

Again, it isn't the rule itself that is in question, it stays. It is the procedure for carrying it out that is the problem (Too hard to remember the numbers used, too much math, not random enough, too random,etc......)

All of the systems presented do the same thing at the end of the pipe. So what procedure then would the players find the easiest to carry out on the battlefield during a game is the opinions desired.

I see nothing wrong in asking players to voice an opinion on procedures, when in fact they are the ones that will need to carry them out during the game?

Is there something wrong in seeking the voice of others to determine direction, when that is something they themselves will be directly involved in later?

Is it showing indecision and weakness of spine to seek the opinions of others on issues that concern them directly?

Is it poor judgment to seek the voice of others upon a subject that they do not directly control, but yet effects what they need to do?

Sorry, but I do not.

As to making of Command Decisions, I have done so before and will do so again when I am sure of what I think needs to be done. Recently TRC, correctly, pointed out a problem with large fearless WE availability in the list. After much discussion I have settled on the answer and it is the one that will be playtested as IMHO it works the best and easiest. There is no procedural problems in the decision made so uninformed opinions weren't needed, and none have been asked for.

Yes I can be ruthless, but it is lonely at the top :sus:

Jaldon :p

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: Nid Spawning Ideas POLL
PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 8:28 pm 
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Quote: (jaldon454 @ 10 Aug. 2008, 12:12 )

Is it poor judgment to seek the voice of others upon a subject that they do not directly control, but yet effects what they need to do?

All interesting comments but since I didn't do anything other than critique the idea of a poll I find it odd that you toss them in to a response to me.

I'm sure I've actually said enough stuff to get POed at without you tossing in references to things I didn't.

Sorry, but I do not.


All fascinating but wildly irrelevant given that I didn't bring up most of those critiques.

Maybe you might want to hunt down the people that did say them to you and gripe at them and limit your bitch session with me to the things I actually did say. You certainly seem POed enough so maybe take it out on the people that deserve it

Now, if you want to start a rant about people that moan and complain when someone steps in to make decisions when no-one else does then I'm more than happy to listen to that and perhaps participate as well :-)

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jaldon454
 Post subject: Nid Spawning Ideas POLL
PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:58 am 
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All interesting comments but since I didn't do anything other than critique the idea of a poll I find it odd that you toss them in to a response to me.


If I believed you had said such I would have directly said so, and referenced it as such PG.

The comments were a reference to 'Why Do Polling' in general and placed on the forum for all to read and decide on. Merely my opinions, not a reference directed at you personally.

No doubt, the comments you made did precipatate the thoughts put down, and I decided to illicit it. Again nothing personal just my opinions.

I am sorry you seem to have taken my opinions, a collection of thoughts, as a personal attack. That was never my intention.

I'm sure I've actually said enough stuff to get POed at without you tossing in references to things I didn't.

I am almost sorry I am not POed.

Why the sudden decision that this was in some way a personal attack on you PG? I am confused, really :upside:

If it has been taken as such then I apologize PG, it was not my intention to do so, I have too much respect for your opinions to do so.

Obviously either I am failing to understand your question PG, or I am not making myself clear in my direct responses.

So I will try again to answer your question and maybe I will get it right. Why do the polling anyways even if those not directly involved in playtesting will be able to vote?

(1) Spawning as a rule, works and is needed in the list. Only the exact procedure is the question. Hence the poll of all players to garner a feel for what they think.

(2) I wanted the Poll to help me decide the issue and felt that a closed Poll would not accomplish the job. This has proven to be true as posters have stated their opinions along with voting. I have found these comments both enlighting and helpful.

(3) I assume that you find this to be a problem as I have decided to attack the issue starting at the top, which one got the most votes, and working down from there. I felt this would be the best way to attack the issue once the polling was done.

Now, if you want to start a rant about people that moan and complain when someone steps in to make decisions when no-one else does then I'm more than happy to listen to that and perhaps participate as well :-)

It was my decision to use a poll as I am also torn on the issue because there is so little difference in the results obtained at the other end of the pipe with all of them.

In the end the final decision will rest in my backyard, unless of course if there are plans afoot to remove me (No PG I didn't say you said this, I said it).

I am almost sorry I even bothered setting up the poll at all, now. All I wanted was input from the players not a
Spanish Inquisition........................................ :vD

Truthfully I am not going to make this mistake again, it really hasn't been worth it. From now on I'll only do polls that concern hair colors, or figure mounting.

Consider the Poll Closed, and in a day or two I will decide which system we are going to use.

Thanks All............

Jaldon :p

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: Nid Spawning Ideas POLL
PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 5:23 am 
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Quote: (jaldon454 @ 10 Aug. 2008, 19:58 )

I am sorry you seem to have taken my opinions, a collection of thoughts, as a personal attack. That was never my intention.

You need to not quote people before you launch into a longer discussion. :-)

I've been bitten in the ass by that very thing. You quote someone, write a response and then go off on a bit of a tear :-)

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Ginger
 Post subject: Nid Spawning Ideas POLL
PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 11:17 am 
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Jaldon makes a very good point in saying that all the proposed systems give roughly the same result. So to help Jaldon make some descisions, could we debate two elements in the mechanics:-
  • Just how much randomness is desirable?
    The intention is to provide the feeling of a "Wall of bugs", but should this include some random variation in it (ignoring all other considerations for the moment). Also, while the simplicity of the "Fixed" method makes it more practical, what issues does a lack of variation cause to game-play and "fluff":-
    - How representative is the "Fixed" approach and is this better or worse than a random mechanic?
    - If randomness is desirable, what variation in spawning points would be reasonable;  +-1, +-2, +-3 etc?

  • Just how much influence should the opposing player have over spawning?
    The factors currently identified are "Broken" and the proximity of enemy formations. Are there any other considerations eg:-
    - The number of enemy units relative to the swarm,
    - The number of other nearby swarms?
    - Does LoS have an impact?
    - The number of BMs on the formation
    Ultimately, I guess the question is to what degree the opponent should be capable of reducing or even stopping a given swarm from spawning?

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