Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 2 of 2
  [ 24 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

alternate force organisation idea
Dave
 Post subject: alternate force organisation idea
PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:03 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:25 pm
Posts: 9539
Location: Worcester, MA
I wouldn't decrease the fraction of points that may be spent on synapse creatures, 1/3 has had a lot of playtesting over the revisions.

If the WE presence is seriously that big of a problem (considering your basic Ork list can field all fearless Gargants I'm still not convinced it is) I would suggest perhaps bringing independent formations down to 1/4 the cost of the list.

At least then you'll only see two of the big bugs in a 3k game. Or maybe just increase the point cost of the big hugs? They did get a pretty big upgrade when regeneration dropped in the form of more DC, but nothing in the way of a point increase.

However, you could also drop the DCs back and bust out regeneration again with a points increase.  :))

_________________
Dave

Blog

NetEA Tournament Pack Website

Squats 2019-10-17
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
jaldon454
 Post subject: alternate force organisation idea
PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 11:45 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 4:38 am
Posts: 303
Location: Utah, Texas, or some Pacific Island
Using a 3,000 point list as a baseline we get the following.......

Ork Horde 1,000 points for Gargants (Page 138 under Cost: last sentence "Up to one third of points available to an Ork army can be spent on aircraft and Gargants."

That leave ONE Gargant they can field as the Great costs 850pts and the Regular 650pts.

Even if we throw in the Stompa Mob with Supa-Stompas, which are only DC-4, that's 475pts.

Great Gargant 850pts (2,150 left)
x4 Stompa Mob w/Supa 1,900 (250 left)

For a total of x28 DC in five formations, if the 250 is used for something else the Activation list goes up to six. (All Fearless WE)

The Nids are fielding x36 or x38 DC in an army that gets eight activations and has 1,000 points left to buy little guys. (Again, All Fearless WE)

Not the same.............

Jaldon :p




_________________
I know a dead parrot when I see one and I'm looking at one right now.
Tyranid AC
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: alternate force organisation idea
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:10 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm
Posts: 8139
Location: London
A good thing to look at is if you limit it to 1/x is it all being spent on it. Good example is Space Marines and CSM, they either have problems with the list or excellent titan choices as they often max out. Guard have the same titan choices as marines and yet often field nowt but two thunderbolts. Orks are similar only getting aircraft typically. Now titans appear in both forces, but not tot he extent as the former two. That's probably a design weakness in those armies, either a weakness in their list, or an overpowered titan selection.

If the Nids regularly get the big guys to he max again whats up, the same question need to be answered. Now of course numerous people have success without the WE list, so what does that suggest... :)

_________________
If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
ragnarok
 Post subject: alternate force organisation idea
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:35 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:43 pm
Posts: 2084
Location: Reading, England
The current list allows you to buy lots of units then stick them down wherever you want, within synapse range, however, most swarms are placed in ways similar to my suggestion, which removes a special rule (swarm organisation).

That statement kinda requires sources. Besides why would it remove the special rule? It might remove couple of paragraphs from it, but swapping brood should still be possible.

It doesn't need sources.  At the moment we can buy want we want, within the lists structure, then at the start of the game (is this before or after I see my enemies formation, or as I place the swarms down, or before/after objectives are placed) we organise our swarms on a model by model basis.

However how many people don’t use standard configurations for their swarms?
Gaunts led by warriors
Carnifex and assault beasts with tyrant
Tyrgons with vituperators and harridans
Hierodules with Dominatrix
And so on.

Despite the list appearing that it is totally open ended there are only certain types of brood being taken.  Just like the AMTL list appears to have thousands of combinations for its weapon loads, only a few configurations are taken, because the others don’t make sense.

Massive Carnifex broods are always supported by a Tyrant or two, or sometimes a mummy beast.
If that was created by the Node, it would stay there unless some other synapse comes around to pick it up. Or was in a subterranean nest and burst out without other synapses around.

True a carnifex borrow, or mycetic spore could fall where there isn’t synapse, or within synapse range of a node.  However in games terms that will rarely every happen (unless it is a scenario), most people place their assault beasts in swarms that can move forwards and engage.

I know I have never placed them with a node, though I might of spawned on with a node once, when I had one spare and the node was under threat from an assault.

You wouldn’t have a tyrant leading a massive gaunt swarm or the node babysitting Trygons.
As far as stories go. Most of them describes synapses leading everything else. Usually this is some Warriors and Tyrant or few. However since 40k only allows those as Synapses, they wouldn't really have other stuff that we do. Well other than small references to bigger things.

Most 40K, or BL, stories don’t beyond the fact that the swarm has leader beasts scattered throughout it directing the smaller beasts.  It can also be quite hard to figure out what sort of leader beast they are talking about.

They also don’t go into how the swarm is commanded by the leader beasts.  So the bigger ones could be running around with dozens of assault beasts, whilst the warriors and thropes are left with the gaunts.

It also allows us to have cool sounding names for our formations
I would allow names to be dictated by rules, not other way around. Though that's just me.

I agree that cool sounding names shouldn’t be the driving force, but we should try using them.  A cool name thrown out there could be the spring board needed to get to the new iteration of the list.

On the WE front.  I’ve taken massed amounts of biotitans because, apart from a single formation of stealers, nothing else in the independent section interests me.  I’ve tried lictors once or twice, but have never gotten them to work.

Moving bio artillery to the independent section could work, heck they don’t need much synapse control to point and shoot.

Another idea would be to drop the hierophant and hydraphants DC back to the old lists numbers and give them a 6+ inv save against each point of damage, to represent the regeneration.  This way you could have large swarms of them, but they can be cut down quite easily.

You could even drop the Hierophants save to 5+RA, Heck an inquisitor with a power sword and krak grenade took one down, and make them choose between the bio cannons and claws.

Though I would keep fearless on them, in my mind all titan sized constructs should be fearless.  Though other than them and synapse I don’t think anything else in the list should be fearless, apart from possible Lictors which can “cloakâ€Â

_________________
Tyranid air marshal
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Dave
 Post subject: alternate force organisation idea
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 2:47 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:25 pm
Posts: 9539
Location: Worcester, MA
Quote: (jaldon454 @ 07 Aug. 2008, 18:45 )

Page 138 under Cost: last sentence "Up to one third of points available to an Ork army can be spent on aircraft and Gargants.

Never caught that. Perhaps enforcing this on the Bugs (like it is with the Necrons) would be enough.




_________________
Dave

Blog

NetEA Tournament Pack Website

Squats 2019-10-17
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
jaldon454
 Post subject: alternate force organisation idea
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 4:33 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 4:38 am
Posts: 303
Location: Utah, Texas, or some Pacific Island
To clear something up first, the following

Actually it has some merits IF we use it for a direct effect rather then a list wide effect. Rags is an example of a list wide effect.

But what if we, instead, created a 'starter' formation for the Syanpase while changing nothing else on the list.

Assault Group
x3 Tyranid Warrior, x4 Hormogant, x4 Termagant 225pts

Attack Group
x2 Hive Tyrant, x3 Malefactor/Haruspex/Carmifex 325pts

Nexus Group
x1 Hive tyrant, x2 Tyranid Warrior, x4 Hormogant, x4 Termagant 250pts

Harassment Group
x1 Haridan, x4 Gargoyle 250pts

(The points break given is intentional)

Nothing else in the Synapse Box changes except the above.


That statement kinda requires sources. Besides why would it remove the special rule? It might remove couple of paragraphs from it, but swapping brood should still be possible.

I never said that the special rules were being changed in the least by this, the swapping remains as always.

While the 'added' units are fixed, and given as a discount to encourage players to take them, the player is still allowed to deploy them anywhere they wish. Further, the Attack Group player gets a choice of taking any three of the beasties in any combination. Again, once bought they may be placed anywhere in the army. This would fit within the existing rules for the list. To clear that up we could simply state the add ons as 'Clusters' instead of the exact units.

All of the added creatures would be the ones a player would add to them anyways. For example who is going to have Tyranid Warriors leading a Swarm full of Carnifexes? If they did the warriors wouldn't be leading them for long would they? A player might 'mix' a Tyranid Warrior led swarm, but they would most definitely take commons to screen the warriors from those nasty bullets flying around, wouldn't they? In truth the add ons would be what a player would purchase anyways.

Never caught that. Perhaps enforcing this on the Bugs (like it is with the Necrons) would be enough.

Out of the mouth of babes (As Jaldon slaps his own forehead remembering JJ's KISS philosophy and the early days) Thanks Dave :agree:

After the following on the Army list page add
The 'Relentless' special rule applies to all Tyranid formations. All Brood Creatures benefit from 'Expendable' special rule. Up to 1/3 of the points available to the Tyranid Army may be spent on Bio-Titans. For this rule Synapse Nodes, Hierodules, and Trygons ARE NOT classed as Bio-Titans.

The beauty of this is it doesn't 'fix' the number of Bio-Titans to any formations, but rather to overall points. Thus allowing the size of the battle to determine the availability of the Big WEs.

The only question then becomes do we want the Harridan on or off the Bio-Titan list? I say off as it is only DC-4.

Thoughts..............

Jaldon :p

_________________
I know a dead parrot when I see one and I'm looking at one right now.
Tyranid AC
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Ginger
 Post subject: alternate force organisation idea
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 6:02 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 5483
Location: London, UK
Quote: (jaldon454 @ 08 Aug. 2008, 16:33 )

After the following on the Army list page add
The 'Relentless' special rule applies to all Tyranid formations. All Brood Creatures benefit from 'Expendable' special rule. Up to 1/3 of the points available to the Tyranid Army may be spent on Bio-Titans. For this rule Synapse Nodes, Hierodules, and Trygons ARE NOT classed as Bio-Titans.

The beauty of this is it doesn't 'fix' the number of Bio-Titans to any formations, but rather to overall points. Thus allowing the size of the battle to determine the availability of the Big WEs.

The only question then becomes do we want the Harridan on or off the Bio-Titan list? I say off as it is only DC-4.

Thoughts..............

Jaldon :p

So to paraphrase a second . . .
a) Up to 1/3 may be synapse creatures
b) Up to 1/3 may be independent
c) up to 1/3 may be DC5+ bio-titans of any class
d) one uncommon brood for every two common

Apart from possibly being a little confusing, if you min-maxed for WE you can still get something like

1x 'Stealers  (200)
2x Hierophant (550)
1x Dominatrix (450)
2x Node       (250)
2x Assault    (300)
2x Hierodule  (250)
4x Trygon     (400)

and 600 for 6x Common broods (as there are three Uncommon broods). This would seem to provide 8 formations, and DC42 where DC34 is mobile. Does this actually fix the Nidzilla list??

_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
jaldon454
 Post subject: alternate force organisation idea
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 6:50 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 4:38 am
Posts: 303
Location: Utah, Texas, or some Pacific Island
My problem has not been with small WEs like the Trygon, Hierodule that are not fearless, as they equate nicely to the small WEs fielded in other armies.

The problem is Fearless large WEs like Dominatrix, Vituperator, Hierophant, etc........


1x 'Stealers  (200)
2x Hierophant (550)
1x Dominatrix (450)
2x Node       (250)
2x Assault    (300)
2x Hierodule  (250)
4x Trygon     (400)


In your above list we have x20 DC in fearless large WEs, which too me is acceptable.

Nodes are immobile and do not count as they cannot take the battle to the enemy.

Hierodule and Trygon are small WE that are not fearless and are the equal of Battlefortresses, Baneblades, and the like and also do not count toward the goal we are trying to achieve.

Which is Fewer Large Fearless WE.

All opponents have MW somewhere in their army, be it assault troops or ranged weapons, with which to engage WEs. As the Nid Bio-Titans have no shielding of anykind they are highly exposed to enemy fire of any kind and especially MWs. The Higher DC is a short compensation to powerfield/void shields/holofields as the Bio-Titan will always take the brunt of all hits, while the others do not until this 'extra protection' is taken out.

Without fearless WEs can be hammered in assaults as they are forced to take those 'extra hits', and must give ground or die. Fearless take no such extra hits and do not have to give ground.

Once again the problem is Fearless Large WEs, not all WEs

The 1/4 limit on Bio-titans is placed outside the main body of the list, as it should be, just like in the Ork Horde list. This makes it very clear that this is an Army Wide upper limit. Putting it directly in the body of the list would cause confusion.

To further 'clear it up' we could add the word 'Bio-Titan' to each formation that this applies to, such as.....

0-1 Hive Group One Dominatrix Bio-Titan unit 450pts
Strike Group One Vituperator Bio-Titan unit 300pts
Harassment Group One Harridan Bio-Titan unit 200pts
Hierodule Cluster One to two Hierodules in any combination 125pts each

I am beginning to really like the KISS of this idea.

Jaldon :p

_________________
I know a dead parrot when I see one and I'm looking at one right now.
Tyranid AC
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
  Print view Previous topic | Next topic 
Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 2 of 2
  [ 24 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net