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Generalized Tyranid Feedback
Ilushia
 Post subject: Generalized Tyranid Feedback
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 3:22 am 
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You could possibly reclassify Zoanthropes to 'Zonathrope Broods' with 3 per brood and claim that their AA ability is the combined psychic might of all 3 of them firing at a single target at the same time.

On Zoanthrope durability: I find it slightly amusing that you simultaneously argue 'We shouldn't follow 40K' then use 40K stats as an argument for why they should be tougher. Not to be insulting, I just find it an amusing double standard, is all. Anyway, when you consider the duration of a turn in E:A and the fact that you're shooting at just one Zoanthrope, I don't think their status as a LV is unreasonable. A turn in E:A equates to about a game of 40K time. Assuming you've got less accuracy due to longer ranges (not unreasonable), then the IG being able to kill ~1 of these with an advance from a infantry platoon isn't unreasonable. Autocannons in a 40K game, seven of them, would inflict ~5.6 wounds in a 6 turn game, go down to say 4 wounds due to movement and lower accuracy, and you've got one dead Zoanthrope. So 12 IG squads and 1 command squad killing a zoanthrope a turn? Totally reasonable, IMHO. And that is about how it works out under the current rules. Similarly you can kill them with lascannons, krak missiles, heavy bolters, plasmaguns. It takes a lot of attacks to do so, to be sure, but they certainly can be killed by non-AT weapons, potentially, so I don't see it as an issue so long as they remain one to a base. If you had 3 of them on a base, then I might be willing to see them move to AV status due to their high resilience and wounds between them, along with the fact that you'd need prodigious levels of massed firepower to take them out at that point.

To me the differentiation between AV, LV and Inf has always been organization. Any Infantry fielded 1 to a base is an LV. Doesn't matter if their armor sucks or is awesome, it's an LV. AVs are tougher, high durability individuals which virtually require high powered weapons to kill and can't be taken down basically at all by massed low-power weapons. Infantry are the opposite, squads of troops who may be incredibly durable individually, but who you can't just kill one of them and call it a day you need the rate of fire that the faster firing weapons produce to reasonably destroy them. Once you have those standards down, then worry about saving throws to represent their durability in their given area of expertise. I have -no- problem with there being an LV somewhere in the game which is a 3+ armor save or 4+ RA if it's appropriate to the item in question to represent their ability to survive incoming fire! LV status is more a matter of what kinds of fire they're potentially vulnerable to and how many of them there are then a matter of how good their defense is.
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Kagetora
 Post subject: Generalized Tyranid Feedback
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:30 am 
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(Ilushia @ Nov. 22 2007,02:22)
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On Zoanthrope durability: I find it slightly amusing that you simultaneously argue 'We shouldn't follow 40K' then use 40K stats as an argument for why they should be tougher. Not to be insulting, I just find it an amusing double standard, is all.

Thats because you are misconstruing what I am saying.  You are changing it from what I actually said, i.e. "40k stats and fluff should be guidelines, secondary to actual Epic rules," into a pure black-and-white issue.

Its far from contradictory to say "use these 40k stats, but lets change these to better fit our game."
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Markconz
 Post subject: Generalized Tyranid Feedback
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:32 am 
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In fact AP fire is a quite reasonable way to kill Zoanthopes in 40k.  T4 and only two wounds means they can go down fast despite the 2+ save.  No different to a couple of terminators ultimately and thus Zoanthropes should no more be AV's than terminators IMHO.

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Kagetora
 Post subject: Generalized Tyranid Feedback
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 8:47 am 
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(Markconz @ Nov. 22 2007,03:32)
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In fact AP fire is a quite reasonable way to kill Zoanthopes in 40k. ?T4 and only two wounds means they can go down fast despite the 2+ save. ?No different to a couple of terminators ultimately and thus Zoanthropes should no more be AV's than terminators IMHO.

Just out of curiosity, if we are going to fixate on 40k stats and such, isn't anything within Synapse range immune to Instant Death?  And therefore the good ol' Zoanthrope can eat up a Lascannon shot or even a Railgun, despite the T4?  Shouldn't we therefore declare them to be significantly tougher than, say, a Rhino or other AV 10-12 vehicle?  Or at least as good?

And shouldn't there be essentially zero discussion over the Carnifex's save?  Instant upgrade to 4+ RA?  Taking into account the T6+, 2+ save, 4+ wounds, and even possible Regen?

Seriously...if we are going to write the list this way, lets go all out, shall we?

Obviously we are not going to do this...so why is it ok in some instances but not in others?
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Ilushia
 Post subject: Generalized Tyranid Feedback
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 8:53 am 
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Maybe I'm stupid, but I still just can't understand people's hatred of LVs, to be honest. While they are vulnerable to both kinds of fire power, so what? All you have to do is put them in a mixed formation or a formation consisting almost entirely of them and it doesn't matter anyway, right? It's not like the AP/AT values of most things are staggeringly  better enough to make it -that- huge a difference if they can be fired at with either/or. The primary complaint seems to be 'they're easy to single out', but the answer to that, to me at least, is to field them in units which already have both types of models in them, or field units nearly/entirely composed of them! I field LVs all the time with my Sentinels. I've fought against Marines using Land Speeders and never seen anything wrong with them, either. Why all the complaints about LV, exactly, beyond 'they don't feel as tough as they should be in 40K'?

For the record: They're currently MORE durable against lascannons/railguns then Rhinos or Chimera are. Infact, they're TWICE as durable against those weapons as either of those vehicles are, as far as I can tell! The place where they're more vulnerable is stuff like Heavy Bolters and Autocannons which get better AP values then AT values. Which fits with something which is relatively vulnerable to weight-of-fire attacks instead of high-power fire attacks.
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Markconz
 Post subject: Generalized Tyranid Feedback
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 10:56 am 
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(Kagetora @ Nov. 22 2007,06:47)
QUOTE

(Markconz @ Nov. 22 2007,03:32)
QUOTE
In fact AP fire is a quite reasonable way to kill Zoanthopes in 40k.  T4 and only two wounds means they can go down fast despite the 2+ save.  No different to a couple of terminators ultimately and thus Zoanthropes should no more be AV's than terminators IMHO.

Just out of curiosity, if we are going to fixate on 40k stats and such, isn't anything within Synapse range immune to Instant Death?  And therefore the good ol' Zoanthrope can eat up a Lascannon shot or even a Railgun, despite the T4?  Shouldn't we therefore declare them to be significantly tougher than, say, a Rhino or other AV 10-12 vehicle?  Or at least as good?

Well in 40k they die just as easily to AP fire whether in synapse range or not, and they are already tougher against a lascannon than a Rhino in EA (reinforced armour) so I'm not sure what your point is?

Really I think the Zoanthrope stats are pretty appropriate, though I think the FF MW attack should also be a 15cm MW ranged attack.

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Kagetora
 Post subject: Generalized Tyranid Feedback
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 7:24 pm 
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(Ilushia @ Nov. 22 2007,07:53)
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Maybe I'm stupid, but I still just can't understand people's hatred of LVs, to be honest. While they are vulnerable to both kinds of fire power, so what? All you have to do is put them in a mixed formation or a formation consisting almost entirely of them and it doesn't matter anyway, right? It's not like the AP/AT values of most things are staggeringly ?better enough to make it -that- huge a difference if they can be fired at with either/or. The primary complaint seems to be 'they're easy to single out', but the answer to that, to me at least, is to field them in units which already have both types of models in them, or field units nearly/entirely composed of them! I field LVs all the time with my Sentinels. I've fought against Marines using Land Speeders and never seen anything wrong with them, either. Why all the complaints about LV, exactly, beyond 'they don't feel as tough as they should be in 40K'?

For the record: They're currently MORE durable against lascannons/railguns then Rhinos or Chimera are. Infact, they're TWICE as durable against those weapons as either of those vehicles are, as far as I can tell! The place where they're more vulnerable is stuff like Heavy Bolters and Autocannons which get better AP values then AT values. Which fits with something which is relatively vulnerable to weight-of-fire attacks instead of high-power fire attacks.

You're not stupid. ?I think we just have very different playstyles.

I, for one, intensely dislike fielding mixed formations. ?Its a pure strategic decision on my part. ?A great many Formations have essentially double the mixed firepower than they have vs a single type of Unit. ?Often these units, if allowed their full firepower, can simply hammer you out of existence. ?But, if you focus your own formation (all AV's or all INF, as examples), you essentially hamstring their firepower, forcing your opponent to re-think his tactics...i.e. what Formations he is going to throw at your Formations. ?Obviously this doesn't work against every Formation in the game...but it works against a LOT of them, and its very effective.

Conversely, try taking a mixed formation against a 10-strong Leman Russ company sometime, and you will see exactly what I mean. ?Against AV's, they get 20 shots. ?Against INF, they get 30. ?Against a mixed formation, they get a whopping 40 shots. ?Its an extreme example...but its perfectly valid to illustrate my point.

So, if I take, say, a Swarm of AV's (Tyrant, Carnis, Slugs), then mix in some LV's, I am essentially doubling my opponent's firepower. ?Thats more dead units on my side, more BM's, and a bunch of wasted points.

An all-LV formation is even worse. ?ANYTHING can kill it, essentially, just by looking cock-eyed at it.

And mixed formations often end up so large, unwieldy, and expensive as to be an extremely bad way to spend your points, IMO. ?Nexus Group, 6 Carnis to guard the Tyrant, 12-16 Gaunts, 4 Gargs...you are already looking at 725 points if you take half Hormagaunts and half Termagaunts. ?Now you want to add in LV's on top of that?

I assure you, you will get twice the mileage out of the Swarm if you split it in two...and if you trim the numbers down significantly, to bring the cost into the 500-600 range, you would have been WAY better off cutting your opponent's firepower in half by taking a non-mixed formation.

Thats how I see it anyway. ?I win a lot of games of Epic, and I play this way most of the time. ?If I have an option to avoid a Mixed Formation, I take it every time.

As such, LV's, to me, are useless. ?Well, thats not true. ?Vypers, Land Speeders, Sentinels, they all have good uses, despite their vulnerability. ?Super-fast, decent firepower, excellent Support for Engagements.

The Zoanthrope, however, with a single AP attack, 15cm move, and a 5+ RA save, is nothing but a 100% liability. ?A waste of points, IMO. ?We need to find a way to change it.

I have proposed two simple solutions. ?Better firepower (including AA) in the form of the Energy Blast (Zoantropes in 40k can be Synapse, and buy other stuff as well, so the "it doesn't have a Symbiote" argument doesn't really wash with me) or making it an AV. ?I am obviously in the minority opinion on making it an AV. ?Thats cool. ?If it had better firepower, I'd probably be more prone to taking it myself.

But right now? ?I have 8...they gather dust.

I'm not real fond of the Junkatrukks in my Feral Ork list either. ? :laugh: ? Nothing but free BM's for my opponent.
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Chroma
 Post subject: Generalized Tyranid Feedback
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 7:31 pm 
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(Kagetora @ Nov. 22 2007,18:24)
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I'm not real fond of the Junkatrukks in my Feral Ork list either. ? :laugh: ? Nothing but free BM's for my opponent.

What about Squiggoths? ?The biggest LVs in the game! ? :D

I will certainly admit that Leman Russ are the extreme example of "mixed fire"... not sure there are that many other units, across armies, that are that "diverse" in their load-outs.

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Charad
 Post subject: Generalized Tyranid Feedback
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 7:52 pm 
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LV:s against eldar formations or orks? almost same amounts of shots everytime. having lv:s is not such a downfall as you seem to like. but you are correct, everyone has their own style of playing. :)

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zombocom
 Post subject: Generalized Tyranid Feedback
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 11:00 pm 
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Harridons should go up to DC 4.

In 40k they have 3 mass points, which is equivilent to DC 4. All other war engines in the list have mass points + 1 as DC.

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Generalized Tyranid Feedback
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 1:40 am 
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My lack of dislike against LVs probably comes partly from the fact that my primary opposition is Necrons, and in an assault it doesn't matter if you're Inf, LV, AV or WE. Hits hurt, period. In terms of being shot at, I'll agree that the Leman Russ Co. is pretty painful. But it's also a 650 point formation kitted out with tons of shooting power and comparatively low FF ability given its weapon loadouts (Nevermind CC ability!) so I'd expect it to be able to thoroughly trash a 400-500 point formation pretty easily, to be honest!  :laugh:

Against most formations, though, they don't seem that big a liability. The lack of mobility might enter into it, but at 15cm they can potentially garrison (I think..?) along with some Fexi up front.

Something like...

Nexus Group
     2x Zoanthrope Broods
     2x Carnifex Broods

15 stands for 575 points, the only thing in the unit vulnerable to AP fire are the Zoanthropes and you need about 2.2 hits with any kind of weapon to off a Zoanthrope, 3  hits to off a Carnifex. It's vulnerable to stuff like Leman Russ sure, but on the other hand it'll also get 6 FF MW attacks, probably 3 regular melee attacks and 3 MW melee attacks unless you're lucky enough to get the fexi into melee. The Zoanthropes  maybe should have their FF value boosted to a 4+, perhaps, since they're relatively slow. But I'd see them as pretty useful really. Plus, since any type of hit can be assigned to them you could field say a Nexus Group with 4x Zoanthrope Broods, 12 Zoanthropes, a Hive Tyrant and 2 Warriors for 575, with a potential 12 FF MW attacks! Which can garrison and most of the formation has RA!

Just what I'm seeing looking over the list, having never played with/against 'nids. Might be worth a trial run at some point, though.
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