Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 66 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

Tyranid AA

 Post subject: Tyranid AA
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 6:12 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
I'd like to see armour removed from Gargoyles entirely.

I see no reason why they're any tougher than a termagant or hormagaunt base... or an imperial guardsman base for that matter.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tyranid AA
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 6:21 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
It's unjustified.

Gargoyles are meant to be a mutation of the gaunt genus with wings, that makes them harder to kill in no respect, in fact other units in the game when given wings become easier to kill (Damon Princes, Hive Tyrants).

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tyranid AA
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:21 am 
Purestrain
Purestrain
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm
Posts: 7925
Location: New Zealand
The save represents the zippiness factor (which to be fair probably has saved my gargoyles more than a few times by taking advantage of local cover in 40k scale).

As for other ideas in this thread I have yet to see anything that addresses the problems I've outlined previously:

http://www.tacticalwargames.net/cgi-bin....d226373


Ie, there needs to be  AA support that can keep up with attack swarms (which are what tyranids are all about) as opposed to just defending artillery as the spores do.

Also non-attackable AA (eg blanket tyranid flying organisms doing universal AA attacks on any flyers) is not liked because it cannot be targeted and does not scale in terms of points balance.

Given the lack of other suggestions, I'd suggest giving gargoyles 30cm AA same as Furies. As I've said Gargoyles are simply an easy way of showing that the tyranids are a swarming seething mass of organisms in the land and air, without complicated mechanisms.

_________________
http://hordesofthings.blogspot.co.nz/


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tyranid AA
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:28 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
The save represents the zippiness factor (which to be fair probably has saved my gargoyles more than a few times by taking advantage of local cover in 40k scale).


Then use your Gargoyles' superior speed in Epic to put them into cover.

The 6+ save on Gargoyles is unjustifed.

Given the lack of other suggestions

- Increase Spore movement speed to 15cm.
- Increase the range of the AA stat on spores.

Two suggestions for you that don't involve 4000mph suicide gargoyles. :)

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tyranid AA
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:35 am 
Purestrain
Purestrain
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm
Posts: 7925
Location: New Zealand

(Evil and Chaos @ Nov. 08 2007,23:28)
QUOTE
Two suggestions for you that don't involve 4000mph suicide gargoyles. :)

That is not required as has been described in detail before.

_________________
http://hordesofthings.blogspot.co.nz/


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tyranid AA
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:50 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
Only if you decide that each stand of 5 Gargoyles is actually representative of 50 gargoyles flying in a flock overhead, which is strictly not the case with every other unit in Epic...


If you only have 5 Gargoyles, you're going to need them to fly at mach 3 to stand a chance of anything other than accidental interception (Which would be represented by an AA12+ shot).

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tyranid AA
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 2:07 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:13 am
Posts: 8711
Location: Leipzig, Germany, Europe, Sol III, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Universe

(Evil and Chaos @ Nov. 09 2007,01:28)
QUOTE
The save represents the zippiness factor (which to be fair probably has saved my gargoyles more than a few times by taking advantage of local cover in 40k scale).


Then use your Gargoyles' superior speed in Epic to put them into cover.

The 6+ save on Gargoyles is unjustifed.

You could say the same about the superior save of LandSpeeders, Vypers, Jetbikes,  Bikes, etc...

_________________
We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tyranid AA
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 2:14 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
Jetbikes are being downgraded in armour save to 5+, Bike units definitely deserve their 4+ save (Maybe even a 3+, they're much tougher to kill than SM infantry), Vypers I think are pretty accurately reflected, as are Land Speeders.

It takes a S4 Boltgun hit a 3+ to *KILL* a Gargoyle.

It takes a S4 Bolgun hit a 6 to even cause a glancing hit on a Land Speeder (And IIRC it can only ever take glancing hits anyway as it's a skimmer), and then it's still very likely to survive that hit.


Put a Gargoyle in cover however, and the Gargoyle gets a cover save... if only there was a mechanism like that in Epic...  :glare:  :cool:





_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tyranid AA
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 2:16 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:45 pm
Posts: 85
As one who was complaining about 'Nid AA before, I have definitely come around to the thinking that they DON'T need fast AA keeping up with the Assaulting Swarms.

I really do like the idea of a more stationary air defense basically over your own table half, and the Swarms launching attacks out of that.  I just think thats plain cool.  It has a high coolness factor in my eyes, shall we say.

That said, I do think the stationary AA needs an upgrade.  Half a dozen floating balls with a total max spread of 25cm+the base widths and a max range of 15cm is just sad.  It can just be flown around too damn easy.  Its almost pointless.

My vote would be for dropping the AA off Gargs and lowering their cost a bit (I could care less if they have armor or not...a 6+ save.  Is this really an issue?  Who makes 6+ saves?  I sure dont...).

Then improving the Spores, AND giving more of the Larger Bio-Titans (DC4+ ones) the Energy Blast that the Dom has.  THAT can provide the cover for the advancing swarms.

As far as the Spores, well, they are problematic.  I like the entire concept, but its going to be difficult to come up with a version of them that avoids every problem people think up.

Problems:
--Need to be decent, but not too good.
--Can't be too cheap or too expensive.
--Can't be overly annoying.

So, I have a few ideas.

Currently, we get 6 Spores for 150 points.  They have 5+ Armor, 6+ FF, 10cm move, 15cm AA5+ attack, and are Instinctive, Independent Support Craft.

Here are a couple ideas for altering them...some new, others old.

--Add more to the formation.  Simply make them 6-9 for 25 points each.  That gives people the option of making a bigger cloud of them if they want, and avoids the other basic problems such as cost.  Not terribly original, but it might work.

--Make them into DC2 WE's with only a 6+ or no save at all.  This makes them more survivable (perhaps too much), but makes them better by letting them spread out twice as far.  The concern about them being too good in an Engagement is silly...you are going to manage to get, what?  1-2 of them into the actual Engagement (10cm move, 10cm spread on them before moving, 15cm range)?  And if they lose you pick them all up (Instinctive).  They would definitely be more survivable against shooting, only being hit by AT or better weapons...but an opponent could simply assault them to obliterate them.  They will probably only have to fight 1-2 of them if they hit an end of a line.  And if your opponent is so stupid as to put a formation within 25cm of every Spore in the Swarm, so they ALL get to assault him...well, I think stupid covers that nicely.

--Change them utterly.  How about this:

Represent them with one big spore.  150 points for a single Spore with the following stats:

Type:  WE
Speed:  10cm
Armor:  5+ (maybe 6+)
CC:  -
FF:  6+
Explosive Spores, 30cm range, 4xAA5+, Disrupt.
DC 4, Instinctive, Independent, Support Craft, Regeneration.

This represents a massive cloud of high-floating spores (multiple damage points, requires AT or better weaponry, Regen) that the opponent has to fly through (multiple AA attacks), yet will be destroyed by concentrated ground fire (vulnerable to assaults, AT/MW/TK fire).  Its fewer DC than the current 6 Spores have, but a bit harder to kill due to not being hurt by AP weaponry (except in Assaults) and Regen.  It gives a good Flak Envelope, but not incredible, and has the added benefit of being a single model, so it doesn't affect the enemy with its ZoC  anywhere near as much as the 6 Spores do.

It would also be easier to play with.  Sure, its a definite Abstraction of the fluff, but I think it might work pretty well, and solve a bunch of problems.

What do you all think?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tyranid AA
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 2:24 am 
Purestrain
Purestrain
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:43 pm
Posts: 7925
Location: New Zealand

(Kagetora @ Nov. 09 2007,00:16)
QUOTE
Then improving the Spores, AND giving more of the Larger Bio-Titans (DC4+ ones) the Energy Blast that the Dom has.  THAT can provide the cover for the advancing swarms.

So Tyranid forward AA has to be WE?  ???

_________________
http://hordesofthings.blogspot.co.nz/


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tyranid AA
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 2:34 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
What about (heresy I know) re-envisioning one of the Assault Spawn models as a flak beast?

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tyranid AA
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 2:43 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:45 pm
Posts: 85

(Hena @ Nov. 08 2007,17:11)
QUOTE
Gargoyles are fine without AA using otherwise current stats and costing 20 a piece.

No.  Gods.  PLEASE.  Do not make ANYTHING in the list cost 20 points each.  Make everything in multiples of 25, as it is now.  I'd rather pay too much for something than end up with an 80-point formation and 20 points left over at the end.  Thats the same as paying 100 points for it.

Epic is not so well balanced to begin with that worrying about 5 points here or there matters.

Gargoyles with AA?  Sure.  100 points for 4.

Without, and possibly without Armor?  75 for 4.  Please.  Not 80.   ???


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 66 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net