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[OLD!] Tyranids 8.4

 Post subject: [OLD!] Tyranids 8.4
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:34 am 
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Ok, having thought more I'm now definitely in favour of ditching the currently proposed v8.4 style of instinctive rules and spawning in favour of something like the alternative style proposed here:
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/cgi-bin....98;st=0

The 8.4 concepts are just too clunky, messy, counterintutive, and above all unnecessary in my view. That's without even considering the highly problematic engage issue raised above.

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 Post subject: [OLD!] Tyranids 8.4
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:07 pm 
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Haveing just had 2 games using v7.1 and finding the experience unbalanced but ego boosting for the Tyranids I decided to look and see what other people thought and came across v8.3 of the army list.
I ran off a copy, read it in full and basically was a little taken aback at the dumbing down of the army i.e. no MW ability for many; Zoanthropes stript of AT and AA ability (especially after forking out a fortune on Ebay for AA cover) etc etc
But, I did see the need for change.
Blast markers a brilliant idea. Instinctive behaviour also
brilliant.
Then I found v8.4. Now I have questions:
1) Gargoyles AA attck-is it a flak attck?
2)When you buy a 'cluster' does have to be deployed together?
3)Can Tyranids 'garrison' as in the rules?
4)Do Synapse creatures in a picked formation have to be in some kind of coherency or can they be 30cm from each other tied together by broods?
5)Has the Synapse(X) control gone for good?

My major criticism is the taking of an uncomon brood for every common brood. Doesn't this do away with haveing 1/4 points for brood etc?


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 Post subject: [OLD!] Tyranids 8.4
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:21 pm 
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Just another thought from a forum virgin on Instinctive bahaviour;
Keep the Hold or Engage move scenario, this will mimick the 40K behaviour of Instinctive behaviour
i) a brood will attack enemy within range and so engage(-2 on activation)
  if enemy are in reach

ii) If above failed or no enemy in reach =AUTO Hold. This mimicks either the firer
mode or move/lurker mode as in 40K.


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 Post subject: [OLD!] Tyranids 8.4
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:23 pm 
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(zaphod @ Sep. 26 2007,18:07)
QUOTE
Haveing just had 2 games using v7.1 and finding the experience unbalanced but ego boosting for the Tyranids I decided to look and see what other people thought and came across v8.3 of the army list.

Welcome to the Swarm, zaphod!  I'm the acting Army Champion for the Tyranids, so feel free to PM, email, or post any question you might have.

Then I found v8.4. Now I have questions:
1) Gargoyles AA attck-is it a flak attck?

Yes, Gargoyles have a short range flak attack, think of it as a couple of them flying up and trying to get in the way of dive-bombing planes, not always effective, but it rattles the pilots!  *laugh*

2)When you buy a 'cluster' does have to be deployed together?
"Clusters" are initally assigned to specific Synapse groups when you set up (or held in reserve), after that, the "cluster" is irrelevant as deaths and spawning mix things up.
3)Can Tyranids 'garrison' as in the rules?
Yes, if they can fulfil any of the garrisoning "requirements", a Tyranid swarm can garrison.
4)Do Synapse creatures in a picked formation have to be in some kind of coherency or can they be 30cm from each other tied together by broods?
The Synapse Group and Broods are, all together, considered one formation, so the Synapse Group *is not* a "sub-formation" within the swarm, so they can be spread out as long as formation coherency is maintained.
5)Has the Synapse(X) control gone for good?As the list is still in development, I can't say the concept is "gone for good", but it is *currently* gone... other factors/changes in the rules/list seem to have rendered it unnecessary.

Looking forward to seeing pictures and reports with your Bugs!

My major criticism is the taking of an uncomon brood for every common brood. Doesn't this do away with haveing 1/4 points for brood etc?[/quote]
test

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 Post subject: [OLD!] Tyranids 8.4
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:24 pm 
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(zaphod @ Sep. 26 2007,18:21)
QUOTE
Just another thought from a forum virgin on Instinctive bahaviour;
Keep the Hold or Engage move scenario, this will mimick the 40K behaviour of Instinctive behaviour

That was actually *exactly* my intent in making that change.  *laugh*

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 Post subject: [OLD!] Tyranids 8.4
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:40 pm 
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Then stick with it. I'm looking forward to Sunday to road test v8.4 against my mates Imp.Grd.
I know he's gonna take masses of arty. That was my idea...oops!!!


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 Post subject: [OLD!] Tyranids 8.4
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 3:25 pm 
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Hey Chroma

Its been ages since I've posted but I have been following the recent changes from afar (our groups has been focusing on Warmaster in recent months and has had something of a break from epic. Overall the recent changes look great!

We have a gaming weekend this weekend and another already in the diary - I will try to get a game in at some point and will of course feed back my findings.

Keep up the good work!

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 Post subject: [OLD!] Tyranids 8.4
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 8:14 pm 
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Downloaded v.8.4 ... looks promising ! :alien:

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 Post subject: [OLD!] Tyranids 8.4
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 6:29 pm 
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Tomorrow I have a test play with new nids. :D  Now I finished my armylist and really I liked structure of new list. :)

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 Post subject: [OLD!] Tyranids 8.4
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:08 pm 
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(Charad @ Sep. 28 2007,18:29)
QUOTE
Tomorrow I have a test play with new nids. :D ?Now I finished my armylist and really I liked structure of new list. :)

You could start a thread for your playtest report showing us your list if you wanted to tease us...  :D

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 Post subject: [OLD!] Tyranids 8.4
PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 4:29 pm 
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'Test' you said.
Would you believe a 'balanced' swarm is a good swarm.
AV to protect the Tyrant and with the Nexus keep the Warriors out of barrage radius.
I am right in thinking Meiotic spores can be targeted by any enemy though aren't I? Not just AA?
Actually lost a game but then no MW ability.
But so nice to have a 'lurking' swarm return to the fray to cause havoc after winning the initiative.
Seems to be working very well.
Aircraft hate Meiotic swarms--windy as hell.


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 Post subject: [OLD!] Tyranids 8.4
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 11:46 pm 
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Finally with the comments... sorry about the delay.

On spawing...

It seems to me that most people would like to see a fixed/reliable component and a random component to spawning and I agree with this.

The pre-8.4 releases generally had *two* random components related to spawning: 1) randomly determine if you successfully spawn or not and 2) randomly determine how *much* you spawned if successful.

I've definitely come to dislike the "double jeopardy" of having two random effects in play like that and felt that one of them should be "solidified".  It seems that other people have a similar feeling, and Markconz put together some alt-rules showing that as well.

Allowing "automatic" spawning is definitely a way of reducing the randomness, and while it makes it easier on the Tyranid player, they know that they're always going to get "something" (we'll ignore the potential of broken/instinctive swarms not spawning here for the moment), they just don't know what, I don't think opponents will like not being able to do anything to stop it.  (Variations on anything "unstoppable" just seem to frustrate opponents.)  Certainly the canny opponent can *reduce* the amount spawned, but can do nothing to prevent it, and I'm not sure how that will be viewed.

The opposite approach is what I proposed in 8.4: fixed "spawn point" values for Synapse creatures, and a Initiative test to make it work. (I left the random "boosts" in there for now, as I *like* rolling dice... *laugh* and it adds some uncertainty into the mix, it's just not *all* uncertainty!)  The complaint against this is that it's too "mechanical"/predictable, and I can certainly see the point, but I would retort that just because you, and your opponent, knows how many potential spawn points each swarm can generate, doesn't mean you (or they) know what specific Broods you'll be bringing back with those points, so, I feel, that *does* give unpredictability to it.

I like the detail of having different spawn values for each Synapse creature, but I'm not married to it (Hi dear!).  In fact, I also like the simplicity of Markconz's "1d3/2d3" for single/multiple Synapse creatures in a group and reading over it again brought a question to my mind:

Why do we feel a group of Tyranid Warriors should spawn *less* than other Synapse groups?  We're talking nine to fifteen (depends on how you base 'em!) Tyranid Warriors here, surely they can drum up some followers!  *laugh*  

Perhaps something like this, if we follow Markconz's path would be a better way to go: A lone Synapse creature generates d3 spawn points, a groups of multiple Syanpse creatures generates 2d3 (Synapse War Engines count their starting DC), perhaps even getting rid of some of the other "spawn boosters".

I think a Rally/Spawn roll is necessary for balance, and haven't, yet, been convinced otherwise.  As well, I'd like to see some battle reports with the "fixed" Synapse spawn point values before we move to much further ahead.

And I'm still willing to debate.

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 Post subject: [OLD!] Tyranids 8.4
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 11:54 pm 
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On Brood Nests...

I like the idea of a spawn booster for the cagey Tyranid player.  To me, something that represents the infection/infestation of Tyranids in the area is a cool idea and it allows for some fun modelling as well.

First off, a comment was made that it was odd/worrisome that a Brood Nest couldn't be attacked... well, Mycetic Spores/Catalysts/Love Drops can't be attacked either (And, heck, none of the "replace an objective with..." things in any army can, currently, be attacked).  What *can* be done with a Brood Hive, is that it can be denied to the Tyranids!  It allows the opponent to do something and not just sit there and take it, as with Mycetic Spores. A brave, cunning, or crazy opponent can go and capture/surround it and prevent its use by the Tyranid player, and I think that makes for good/exciting game play!

Additionally, as a "localized" spawning boost (and, essentially necessary to spawn back "big" things) it allows all players to rationalize and accept where "all those Broods!" are coming from, and I think that will make acceptance of "larger creatures" being spawned more palatable and acceptable.

As an aside, I may do write up for "Tyranid Hives", with Brood Nests being "the smallest" and there being other types that allow other things, similar to the "Portals" in the Eldar list, with the Wraithgate being the smallest, but the implication that there are other types.

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 Post subject: [OLD!] Tyranids 8.4
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 12:08 am 
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Why do we feel a group of Tyranid Warriors should spawn *less* than other Synapse groups?  We're talking nine to fifteen (depends on how you base 'em!) Tyranid Warriors here, surely they can drum up some followers!  *laugh*  


I think it's because they're already a slightly better choice than Hive Tyrants on a swarm composition basis.

Giving them superior spawning power just ramps up their usefulness even higher.

So, subliminally, we don't want to buff them too much in the spawning stakes, even if they deserve it on fluff grounds, becuase they're already very good in-game!

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 Post subject: [OLD!] Tyranids 8.4
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 12:18 am 
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On instinctive...

I don't think Tyranids should break.

Shot up, out of contact, out of position, none of that matters to them... they've got *instincts* to carry them through the rough patches, they don't hunker down and do nothing when the going gets tough; they're bred for it.  

I agree that such a thing can be confusing and/or counterintuitive, but that's because it's a *new rule*; it changes things, challenges assumptions, and creates situations you're not used to.  I feel that experience with it (and clarification and tuning), not just reading it without playing it, will solve almost all difficulties with it.

This is *far* better than the old "Unstoppable" rule, which, I believe, almost single-handedly turned a lot of people off of playing against the Tyranids.  

Yes, there are some apparent quirks.

Assaulting an unactivated swarm, beating it into instinctive allows the survivors to high-tail off to potentially attack something else, yes.  But, 1) it's now going to have a harder time making that roll to engage, and 2) if it loses, you're going to have some bare-naked Synapse creatures sitting around just waiting to be popped!

This means you've got to think differently when you fight against the Bugs... instead of trying to take out unactivated formations, you need to try and take on *activated* formations, so you don't give them that "adrenal boost" or however you want to view it.

The "failed hold then hold" thing... well, that's something that's actually been lurking within the rules since the beginning!  It's just that so few people *choose* to take a Hold action.  Any formation can take a Hold actions... and if they fail their activation... well, they still Hold!  They get a Blast marker and can't retain, but that's it, so I fail to see why it's so "weird" for Tyranids to, essentially, do the same thing?  It still sucks as an order!  *laugh*

Lastly, at least, "on instinctive", I may re-write it so that instinctive formations count as having as many Blast markers as units, since they *are* confused, and that will lessen the strength of the "lost assault rush".

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