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Tyranid Special Rules
Dave
 Post subject: Tyranid Special Rules
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:21 pm 
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(Markconz @ Sep. 24 2007,09:00)
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Thus regarding your desire that spawning should occur while broken, an alternative to it being disallowed  in the set of rules above would be that swarms simply do spawn when broken.  If it was desired to differentiate spawning while broken from spawning while perhaps the first modifier could be:

-No enemy units within 30cm of any unit in the Brood Swarm, and Brood Swarm unbroken +D3


I think that would work too, whatever the general consensus is.  Just as long as we get rid of the rally roll followed by the spawn roll.  No rally roles for Tyanids seems right.


(Markconz @ Sep. 24 2007,09:00)
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Anyway as stated above, I don't think rally rolls, followed by spawn rolls, is a necessary or elegant mechanic.


Agreed.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Tyranid Special Rules
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:09 pm 
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(Dave @ Sep. 24 2007,15:21)
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I think that would work too, whatever the general consensus is. ?Just as long as we get rid of the rally roll followed by the spawn roll. ?No rally roles for Tyanids seems right.

I feel that "auto-spawning" will be a point of contention with opponents; most players don't like it if they can do nothing to stop the enemy from "improving" their formations.

In v8.4, a Spawning (rally) roll is still made, so that instintive formations and those swarms with enemies nearby will have more difficulty spawning than those in good order and far from action.  The basic spawn point value is then based on the actual Synapse creatures in the swarm, with no random factors there:  "I've got 2 Tyranid Warriors, I've got 2 Spawn points."  As well, this allows for future "non-standard" Synapse Groups to have a specific spawning value.

The "variable" factors come in for distance and spawn boosters and won't always be applicable, so it should reduce end of turn die rolling to an extent.

Tyranids do not make "rally checks" to remove Blast markers/instinctive.

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Dave
 Post subject: Tyranid Special Rules
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:40 pm 
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(Chroma @ Sep. 24 2007,11:09)
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I feel that "auto-spawning" will be a point of contention with opponents; most players don't like it if they can do nothing to stop the enemy from "improving" their formations.

In v8.4, a Spawning (rally) roll is still made, so that instintive formations and those swarms with enemies nearby will have more difficulty spawning than those in good order and far from action.


I think the two options seen in this thread are good compromises.

- If a brood is broken, it auto-rallies. If a brood is unbroken it spawns.

- If a brood is broken, it auto-rallies and spawns. If a brood is unbroken it spawns better.

I think either of those will work well. The rallying roll is confusing and should be eliminated. The same effects can be achieved by using one of the above, and with one less roll/nuance to remember.


(Chroma @ Sep. 24 2007,11:09)
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The basic spawn point value is then based on the actual Synapse creatures in the swarm, with no random factors there:  "I've got 2 Tyranid Warriors, I've got 2 Spawn points."  As well, this allows for future "non-standard" Synapse Groups to have a specific spawning value.

The "variable" factors come in for distance and spawn boosters and won't always be applicable, so it should reduce end of turn die rolling to an extent.


As to the spawning values.  I'd still prefer random by Synapse group as opposed to static by Synapse Creature.  Whether it's the old random values or those proposed here is secondary.

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Markconz
 Post subject: Tyranid Special Rules
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:24 pm 
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[quote="Chroma,Sep. 24 2007,15:09"][/quote]
I feel that "auto-spawning" will be a point of contention with opponents; most players don't like it if they can do nothing to stop the enemy from "improving" their formations. In v8.4, a Spawning (rally) roll is still made, so that instintive formations and those swarms with enemies nearby will have more difficulty spawning than those in good order and far from action.  


Like Dave said, this concern is already addressed in the system here, with two alternative mechanisms proposed - both of which are considerably simpler and less nuisance than the 8.4 version, while still achieving a similar result.


The basic spawn point value is then based on the actual Synapse creatures in the swarm, with no random factors there:  "I've got 2 Tyranid Warriors, I've got 2 Spawn points."  As well, this allows for future "non-standard" Synapse Groups to have a specific spawning value.

So does the system I propose and without need to refer any further, and without such micromanagement of spawn values. All necessary details are contained in a single line of the spawning section itself rather than spread throughout data sheets in the army list .

I specifically considered alternative lists and non-standard synapse groups when writing these proposals, which is why it is a random amount  per 'synapse creature' rather than per 'synapse group' (with up to 3 warriors in a synapse group counting as one synapse creature, and a dom counting as 2 synpase creatures). That's quite enough detail I think and I feel the randomness is better than fixed values. I think the differentiation proposed in 8.3 (and 8.4) is a level of detail that is:
a). not justified going into an epic army list given the minor difference it makes.
b). not justified being biased towards certain creatures as it is in any case.
Thus I just discarded it as part of the slimming down process.

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Dave
 Post subject: Tyranid Special Rules
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:48 pm 
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Chroma, I'd really like to see this version of the special rule sin 8.4.1/8.5.  I think they are concise, clear and simple enough for someone reading it through the first time to grasp.

I'd be interested on WE Dave's groups thoughts on them, as well as anyone else picking up the 'nid list for the first time in several revisions.

@ Mark

I had some additional revisions here:

http://www.tacticalwargames.net/cgi-bin....y223206

On seeing your reasoning for the "up to three warriors" thing, the spawn points sections makes a little more sense.  I hadn't realized you were attempting to dock a Nexus swarm's spawn points if it lost the Tyrant or the two Warriors.

The other changes I had there were for clarification again.

Some additional ideas, as an aside.

1. We could possibly rewrite the Dom's critical to reduce its spawn points if the symbiote is killed.

2. Failing an action test, should 'nids get a blast marker?




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woodelf_dave
 Post subject: Tyranid Special Rules
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:49 pm 
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I think the two options seen in this thread are good compromises.

- If a brood is broken, it auto-rallies. If a brood is unbroken it spawns.

- If a brood is broken, it auto-rallies and spawns. If a brood is unbroken it spawns better.


Having spoken to my gaming group (and specificaly with our Nid player) we are certainly in favour of these proposals rather than the current alternatives.  It does away with the hold while broken  state and the bizarre failing to hold so hold anyway situation.

Our group (including the Nid player) seemed to be in favour of the first scenario of the two mentioned here. With Disposable wee griblies it will be much harder to break Nid Swarms (which is a good thing) so players felt there should be a considerable reward for doing so (no spawning for that turn).

There seems to be two camps emerging now as how to proced with the Nid special rules - perhaps a poll might be in order to speed up reolution of which is the route we should follow ?

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Tyranid Special Rules
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:57 pm 
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-No enemy units within 30cm of any unit in the Brood Swarm +D3
-Add a maximum of one Catalyst +D3

What is a Catalyst? (in reference to the Tyranid list)

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woodelf_dave
 Post subject: Tyranid Special Rules
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 7:04 pm 
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What is a Catalyst? (in reference to the Tyranid list)


I assumed it was a spore (spawning enhancer).

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Tyranid Special Rules
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 7:12 pm 
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Well, whatever it is it isn't readily apparent so we may want to add it to the list of things to clarify.  Even if it is something referred to later, a simple (see below) will clear it up nicely.

Otherwise, kudos! Probably the easiest Tyranid read to date.

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Dave
 Post subject: Tyranid Special Rules
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 10:39 pm 
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Ya a Catalyst is the new name for the Mycetic Spore.  It figures that throughout this review process we forget the rudimentary stuff like that...

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Markconz
 Post subject: Tyranid Special Rules
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:08 am 
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(Dave @ Sep. 24 2007,17:48)
QUOTE
Chroma, I'd really like to see this version of the special rule sin 8.4.1/8.5.  I think they are concise, clear and simple enough for someone reading it through the first time to grasp.

I'd be interested on WE Dave's groups thoughts on them, as well as anyone else picking up the 'nid list for the first time in several revisions.

@ Mark

I had some additional revisions here:

http://www.tacticalwargames.net/cgi-bin....y223206

The other changes I had there were for clarification again.

Some additional ideas, as an aside.

1. We could possibly rewrite the Dom's critical to reduce its spawn points if the symbiote is killed.

2. Failing an action test, should 'nids get a blast marker?

Ok, modded with clarifications, including ditching "Catalyst" as Chroma has deleted it in v8.4 and replaced with "Brood Nest".


Have added this line to T1.0 para 3:
Brood Creatures that lose their Synapse Creatures before they have taken an action for the turn still get to take an action, and only "go to ground" if out of synapse range in the End Phase.
Which is probably necessary for clarification but is this the best place for it and way of wording it?


1. Re: Dom - yes possibly if something like this set of special rules is chosen. In fact I'd like to see the critical remove the 'loses synapse' part (which has caused confusion in the past) in favour of just dropping spawning to 1D3. After all in the fluff the dominatrix is the female brood queen with a symbiotic tyrant attached (like an angler fish). It's not like she needs a male to order everything around, she's the matriarch in charge - hence the name dominatrix.

2. Re: Failing an action test - I'd leave it that nids get a BM. Mainly for reasons of simplicity and less rules, but also because it can represent confusion in the synapse control occurring which seems reasonable.

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Dave
 Post subject: Tyranid Special Rules
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 2:47 pm 
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(Markconz @ Sep. 25 2007,01:08)
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Ok, modded with clarifications, including ditching "Catalyst" as Chroma has deleted it in v8.4 and replaced with "Brood Nest".


I really liked the idea of the Catalyst.  I won't argue its demise but hope it can find a home in the Phase III list.



(Markconz @ Sep. 25 2007,01:08)
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Have added this line to T1.0 para 3:
Brood Creatures that lose their Synapse Creatures before they have taken an action for the turn still get to take an action, and only "go to ground" if out of synapse range in the End Phase.
Which is probably necessary for clarification but is this the best place for it and way of wording it?


I agree with its placement and wording.  It should be here because handling broods in the action phase is being discussed in this paragraph.


(Markconz @ Sep. 25 2007,01:08)
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2. Re: Failing an action test - I'd leave it that nids get a BM. Mainly for reasons of simplicity and less rules, but also because it can represent confusion in the synapse control occurring which seems reasonable.


Agreed.

I read them through again, here are some more minor edits:

--------------------------------

T1.0 - Paragraph 2

- Each Brood Swarm counts as a single formation that consists of a single Synapse Group and all Brood Creatures assigned to it.

- In addition, all Brood Creatures must be deployed within synapse range (15cm) of a Synapse Creature from the Brood Swarm's Synapse Group.

- These Brood Creatures may be assigned to Synapse Grounds during the End Phase when the Brood Swarm spawns (see T5.0).

^ Looking at the referrals from the main rulebook, just section numbers are used, that's why I shortened that to T5.0.

T1.0 - Paragraph 3

- However all the Brood Creatures must stay within synapse range (15cm) of a Synapse Creature from the Brood Swarm's Synapse Group.

^ The wording before suggested that a Brood Creature had to be with 15cm of the whole Synapse Group.

- If the Brood Swarm finds itself "out of formation" (either normal, see 1.2.1, or synapse range), the portion with most Synapse Creatures cannot be removed.

^ I changed the section here. 1.2.1 describes what it means to be in and out of formation.  1.7.4 was about the effects of being out of formation.

T2.0  "Go to Ground"

^ I doubled quoted it.  Looking at the rulebook I see single quotes for the most part.  Should we follow suite? Does anyone besides me care?  Should we vote :-P?

T6.0 - Paragraph 1

During the End Phase, a Tyranid War Engine with the regeneration special ability rolls a number of D6 equal to half its starting damage capacity, rounded up.

^ There's no "rally phase" specifically, I changed it to End Phase.

I think T5.0 can be renamed just to Spawning.  The End Phase part is stated in the second sentence.

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Markconz
 Post subject: Tyranid Special Rules
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:33 pm 
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Good points all, cheers.  Updated with changes again.

Re Catalyst - I think Chroma has the right idea in ditching it because of the confusion and questions it generated, but I don't have a very strong view about it.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Tyranid Special Rules
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:45 pm 
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I've got some thoughts and comments on this, but my wife is going out of country for a 4 day conference tomorrow, so I'll be spending the evening with her instead of here... I know, I know... priorities!

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Markconz
 Post subject: Tyranid Special Rules
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:12 am 
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One thing.

I wrote the instinctive rule here to ditch the BM for coming under fire. For single unit formations like Hierophants that means they will be hard to break (generally taking disrupt weapons, extra BM from barrages, crossfire etc). Personally I think that is a good thing because they were rather ridiculously easy to break before, but do people actually realise this is the effect on these particular units? Should the BM for coming under fire be there or not?

Also gaunt formations (termis and hormis) will be hard to break with the disposable rule but then this is also intentional.

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