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Norn Queen Report #3

 Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 11:53 pm 
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(Ilushia @ Aug. 02 2006,23:49)
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I'm fairly sure you mean the Heidrophant in terms of move in 40K? They move the same speed as Hormigaunts do. Of course, the move speeds in 40K these days are bizarre and kinda silly.

Totally agreed!

In epic it could either mean 'this unit is really really fast', or it could mean 'this unit likes charging', it's hard to tell!

So it's really up to us to decide if it works well and which way (Well, up to you guys, since my sense of balance seems to be inherently flawed. I generally don't have a problem with Awesome Badass Things so long as they cost the right amount!)


lol. I have a similar tendancy, though I try and let the background temper me somewhat.

*goes off to give the Hydraphant 8 TK attacks*

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 Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 9:19 am 
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sorry to bring up 40K, but all the Bio war Engines are fearless in that.  I'm willingto let our SHT not be fearless (only just) but the Hierophant should be.  I can't remember the Eldar titans stats, but the imperial titans and the ork gargants are all fearless, so why shouldn't our bio titans be?

I also never understood why the carnifex is allowed to be fearless, but bigger meaner critters aren't

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 Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 10:29 am 
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Agreed, all the units above deserve fearless, if a Carnifex does!

Alternatively, we take fearless away from the Carnifex.

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 Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 11:30 am 
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Fair enough I'm convinced. :)

Fearless stays as-is.

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 Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 12:36 pm 
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I'll have to swing you back to the fearless side now E&C.

Firstly if you agree to fearless almost across the board then all agree that the Trygon should be teleport.  :D

Secondly.  How do you see fearless?  To me it means that once a formation is broken/driven off  it is either string enough or disaplined enough not to have to worry about the enemy harrying it.

a none fearless formation would be spooked by constant harrying fire once broken, and suffer greatly for it.

From this, to me, it seems that the BWE are just too big to suffer from such fire.  If beaten then they will just pull back. with the enemies small arms bouncing off them (I've had 600pts of space marines fire ineffectivly at my trygon once in 40K).

This is especially true of the Heirophant.  It is immune to most small arms fire to begin with and is speedy enough to be able to pull back quickly.

So I am willing to start the haggling at all BWE except the Trygon (which is the smallest) get fearless.  In exchange I am willing to drop regeneration from any WE that isn't synapse with a DC under 6.

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 Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 1:01 pm 
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hohoho. :)

I'm off out to grab a game or two for now, I'll be using most of the suggestions here in this thread (I've even thrown a few 40k rippers onto pennies to playtest some Trygons).

I'll say this, my gut told me to go with Fearless, but I'm not going to swim against the tide on this one, at least until I'm fully convinced it's justified.

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 Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 1:04 pm 
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What tide?  It is oly Hena.  He isn't that big

*Runs and hides, incase Hena heard*

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 Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 1:06 pm 
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The list as-is also has a certain ammount of inertia :)

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 Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 3:47 pm 
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When you get right down to it all the Bio-Titans should be 'Fearless, Inspiring, Infiltrate, Has Lash Whips' units from their 40K stats. But then... WHY are we using 40K stats for them? Why don't we go look at their stats under SM2 or E:40K as a basis for the kind of power they have relative to other titans. Not by necessity relative to our setting, but it's a place to start. The trouble is, in 40K, the primary objective of the game is to do damage much like SM2. You get VP for killing your enemies plus VP for mission objectives, but the majority of VP is from wiping out enemy units. Naturally, as a result, the items in that game are built for the purpose of doing maximum damage. The ability to move and take ground, hold down large areas and be mobile are much less of a concern as a result. Witness the Imperial Guard who, despite having Chimeras, will regularly not move at all all game because they can't use their heavy weapons if they do! In that setting Fearless makes perfect sense on many things. I'll also point out that EVERY VEHICLE in 40K is fearless. EVERY vehicle. Even sentinels. Naturally we're not going to make every vehicle in Epic fearless, that would be silly. Because Fearlessness represents different things in the two systems. A fearless unit in Epic is one who's sufficiently bloodthirsty/crazed/disciplined/controlled to make a fighting withdraw rather then a rout. When forced back they harry the enemy's front-ranks, fire weaposn back into them and disrupt the enemy's attempts at chasing them down. Or they're simply so large and durable they don't care about the enemy's fire. Titans, for instance, may retreat when the conditions become untennable, but certainly aren't going to suffer much from the incoming fire of the enemy when they do.

I would say that the Heirophant deserves Fearless but that the others do not. Why do I believe this? Because the Heirophant is a Titan-equiv, it's huge and insanely durable, and isn't likely to be afraid or go to ground when facing a dozen or even a hundred IG bases. The Trygon, Hierodules and other Bio-SuperHeavies are small enough they can be driven to ground and destroyed by sheer weight of numbers. The Carnifex itself is a huge, fearless creature with armor plating to rival titans and is completely unconcerned with it's own safety. Not nearly large enough to get the 40-50 soldiers ontop of you'd need to take one down easily they'll  simply retreat when ordered to, with enemy weapons bouncing off their hides. The other thing to remember is, that as multiple DC units, Hierodules and Heirophants only lose 1 DC per point they lose an assault by. Which is reasonable to me. I think there's justification for a Heirophant to be Fearless, but I'd rather avoid the other Bio-WEs becoming Fearless. In keeping with the idea that only the biggest, baddest, toughest and most disciplined troops are fearless. After all, if a Trygon deserves to be Fearless surely a Baneblade or Shadowsword does. And do you really want to set that kind of backwards-prescident?


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 Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 3:55 pm 
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I always thought it odd that WEs weren't fearless.  Something as big and bad arse as a baneblade shouldn't worry if there are lots of enemies.  Even if the engine breaks, all you have to do it electrify the hull and set the frag defenders to auto.  Then just sit back and sip tea whilst waiting to be rescued.

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 Post subject: Norn Queen Report #3
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 8:51 pm 
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Just got back from my game, played at 3000pts against Marines, where (relevant to this thread) I had:

3 Harridans.
1 Hierophant.
3 Trygons.


My Hierophant, as usual, never reached an Engagement (A Warlord nuked it from 6 wounds to 0 in one turn of shooting, without even getting as far as firing its Turbo-Lasers).

And I've come to realise that Trygons are incredibly under-pointed for their DC-3 4+ RA. (A squad of Terminators with a Chaplain dropped in behind one of my swarms, then I had my Trygons emerge into the same swarm, so that when the assault came my Trygons easily destroyed the Terminators, for almost no return damage... well I did lose a Tyrant in the Assault but that's besides the point!).

I'll be posting a re-pointed list in a bit, I think that should be our next focus. Trygons for example possibly should go as high as 200pts each.

Even at DC-3, Harridans still die easy. :)

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