Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 131 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next

Spawning, Victory Conditions and Gamey-ness

 Post subject: Re: Spawning, Victory Conditions and Gamey-ness
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:42 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:49 am
Posts: 5569
Ginger wrote:
II am not sure that it does - if you were able to get a lerge number of spawning points in a formatioin, even these restrictions might not be sufficient to prevent something large from suddenly 'appearing'. IIRC it was this consideratioin that was one of the reasons for toning down the spawning capacity.


Except you can't get enough spawning points to summon anything big unless you have a dominatrix in the formation. In 9.2.1 you can get a maximum of 3 spawning points if you're near the enemy. You can easily tweak it to be even harsher if you want.

All of this is irrelevant given that the AC wants resurrection-only spawning and no WE spawning.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Spawning, Victory Conditions and Gamey-ness
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:45 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:13 am
Posts: 8711
Location: Leipzig, Germany, Europe, Sol III, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Universe
How about a spawning pool per formation? Number of Synapses could restrict how many spawning points could be used per turn.
Could be percieved as fiddly but would solve the tie-breaker and BTS issue. Also it wouldn't feel like ressurection.

_________________
We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Spawning, Victory Conditions and Gamey-ness
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:46 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:49 am
Posts: 5569
Horrendously fiddly.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Spawning, Victory Conditions and Gamey-ness
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:56 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:13 am
Posts: 8711
Location: Leipzig, Germany, Europe, Sol III, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Universe
"Horrendously" might be over exagerated. I don't talk about placing aside specific creatures per swarm tobwe spawnable. But to write down a number of spawning points based on the number of Synapses in the formation.
For example: A Swarm has 3 units of Tyranid Warriors. This grants you or enables you to buy 15 (5 per Tyranid Warrior unit) Spawning Points for this Swarm only.
Each time this Swarm spawns something you note the number of used up spawning points.

Wouldn't be much more fiddly than Daemon Pool book-keeping.

_________________
We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Spawning, Victory Conditions and Gamey-ness
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 1:13 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:49 am
Posts: 5569
BlackLegion wrote:
Wouldn't be much more fiddly than Daemon Pool book-keeping.


If you have 5 synapse formations it's 5 times more fiddly than the daemon pool. More actually, because the daemon pool only contains two unit types, whereas each of these pools would have about ten. 25 times more fiddly then.

I like the fact that it solves the BTS/tie breaker issue somewhat, but it's unworkable imho.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Spawning, Victory Conditions and Gamey-ness
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 1:33 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:13 am
Posts: 8711
Location: Leipzig, Germany, Europe, Sol III, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Universe
You could add fixed spawn numbers.
Every time you spawn you have to use-up all spawning points of one Synapse unit. Sure you could spawn less but the points would be gone anyway. If a Synapse is killed which hasn't spend it's Spawning Points then those points are lost too.
This would limit book-keeping to the same extend as one-shot weapons. Yes there are a lot of Synapses in a Tyranid army but it should be simpler to keep track of "used up" Synapses than of multiple Leman Russ Demolisher's Plasma Cannons :)

_________________
We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Spawning, Victory Conditions and Gamey-ness
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 1:37 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:49 am
Posts: 5569
Sorry, I'm just not buying it. It's much too complicated.

I'm sure there must be another solution out there we haven't thought of.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Spawning, Victory Conditions and Gamey-ness
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 4:36 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:25 pm
Posts: 9523
Location: Worcester, MA
I think the current spawning rules utilize a fair amount of abstraction. The benefits being unmodified victory conditions and simplicity. The disadvantages people are getting hung up on though seem to be:

1) it doesn't scale
2) it's regeneration

I forget who's system it was back in the 8.1 list split (either Chroma's or Hena's), but each synapse creatures had a synapse value. These values were added together for the swarm and were the spawn points a formation had. So if Warriors were Synapse 1 and a swarm had three of them then it had 3 Spawn Points. The problem people had with it was that it was too set and not random enough.

If you wanted spawning to grow relative to a formation you could bring something like that system back. To randomize it you could make the rule yield something like this, halving the points rolled when within 30cm:

Code:
Synapse   Spawn Points
   1           1
   2           d2
   3           d3
   4           d3+1
   5         d3+d2
   6          2d3
   7          2d3+1
   8        2d3+d2
   9          3d3


All that is fairly wordy/complicated though in the face of what we have. Frankly, I'd rather stick to something simple than have people start relying on another chart of something.

On the resurrection thing, the only way you're going to get away from that fairly is a mechanic similar to a daemon pool. Allowing formations to grow without limit would be too open to abuse I think. But like I said above, the spawning rules utilize a lot of abstraction. I'd bet that any daemon pool-esque solution wouldn't yield drastically different results in what was spawned back, it would just merely allow a swarm to grow beyond its original size.

Again, I'd rather stick with something simple even if it doesn't fit the fluff we're modeling 100%.

_________________
Dave

Blog

NetEA Tournament Pack Website

Squats 2019-10-17


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Spawning, Victory Conditions and Gamey-ness
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 4:38 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
Quote:
I forget who's system it was back in the 8.1 list split (either Chroma's or Hena's), but each synapse creatures had a synapse value. These values were added together for the swarm and were the spawn points a formation had. So if Warriors were Synapse 1 and a swarm had three of them then it had 3 Spawn Points. The problem people had with it was that it was too set and not random enough.

I liked it a lot, I don't see a need for a great deal of randomness.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Spawning, Victory Conditions and Gamey-ness
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 4:52 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:49 am
Posts: 5569
Dave wrote:
On the resurrection thing, the only way you're going to get away from that fairly is a mechanic similar to a daemon pool. Allowing formations to grow without limit would be too open to abuse I think. But like I said above, the spawning rules utilize a lot of abstraction. I'd bet that any daemon pool-esque solution wouldn't yield drastically different results in what was spawned back, it would just merely allow a swarm to grow beyond its original size.


This is the mechanic I prefer.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Spawning, Victory Conditions and Gamey-ness
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:46 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:56 pm
Posts: 624
Location: Parts Unknown
what's wrong w/ purchasing a spawn pool. at beginning of turn roll dice to see how many points you get, then place them like teleports. this would not cause any problems with objective since they are counted at end of turn. also would not be able to place units in a shot up formation.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Spawning, Victory Conditions and Gamey-ness
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:24 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:25 pm
Posts: 9523
Location: Worcester, MA
Placing them like teleport gives the army a lot of flexibility with its battle plan. That would lend the army an air of surgical precision that doesn't really fit the flavor. The effect we're aiming for is Synapse Creatures finding and redirecting creatures that have come into their synapse range/creatures rapidly healing their wounds/sporadic reinforcements via mycetic spores.

_________________
Dave

Blog

NetEA Tournament Pack Website

Squats 2019-10-17


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Spawning, Victory Conditions and Gamey-ness
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:36 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:47 am
Posts: 1434
Location: State College
if you want non-precise spawning but without it being regeneration, why not have a spawn pool but randomise the ability of a fm to spawn? Ie. roll a D6 for each synapse fm, on a X+ it can spawn, <X it cant'. Then you roll for no.s of critters. Not KISS, obviously, but there seem to be sufficient valid points against all of the spawning systems in use to make it worth considering.

One thing that I'd like to see, is the possibility that a fm doesn't spawn back anything. As it is in most lists, you're pretty much guaranteed to rally and, if you're >30cm away from an enemy fm, guaranteed to get at least 2 brood back, which is anything but random. Not sure how to do that, perhaps if 2 dice are rolled, have pairs = 0?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Spawning, Victory Conditions and Gamey-ness
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:39 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:49 am
Posts: 5569
mattthemuppet wrote:
if you want non-precise spawning but without it being regeneration, why not have a spawn pool but randomise the ability of a fm to spawn? Ie. roll a D6 for each synapse fm, on a X+ it can spawn, <X it cant'. Then you roll for no.s of critters. Not KISS, obviously, but there seem to be sufficient valid points against all of the spawning systems in use to make it worth considering.

One thing that I'd like to see, is the possibility that a fm doesn't spawn back anything. As it is in most lists, you're pretty much guaranteed to rally and, if you're >30cm away from an enemy fm, guaranteed to get at least 2 brood back, which is anything but random. Not sure how to do that, perhaps if 2 dice are rolled, have pairs = 0?


You could make it d6-2 spawning points per formation, +2 points for being further than 30cm away, +2 points per brood mother in the formation.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Spawning, Victory Conditions and Gamey-ness
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:55 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
Quote:
You could make it d6-2 spawning points per formation, +2 points for being further than 30cm away, +2 points per brood mother in the formation.

Seems ok to me.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 131 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net