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[Pre-release 8.5] Spawning

 Post subject: [Pre-release 8.5] Spawning
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:56 pm 
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Havn't you seen Jurassic Park?

Those things are noisy! :D

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 Post subject: [Pre-release 8.5] Spawning
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:57 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Nov. 12 2007,15:48)
QUOTE
A Carnifex is the size of an elephant.

A Hierodule is the size of a T-Rex.


Exactly. So, logically...

If... she... weighs... the same as a duck,... she's made of wood.

And therefore?

A witch!!

I'm okay with the abstraction for the most part, but Hierodules popping into existence in the middle of open ground is just odd.

Which is why, with my "option", only an swarm far from the enemy and near a Brood Hive has any real chance of getting one... it's coming out of the Hive!

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 Post subject: [Pre-release 8.5] Spawning
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:59 pm 
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Which is why, with my "option", only an swarm far from the enemy and near a Brood Hive has any real chance of getting one... it's coming out of the Hive!


This one I reckon I can just about justify to my opponents.

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 Post subject: [Pre-release 8.5] Spawning
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 5:36 pm 
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I actually like one aspect of this proposal - the rally mods function as automatic reduction in the spawn points.  If you only have a slim chance to rally/spawn, you're never going to get a lot of spawn points.  That seems like a cool idea to me.  A synapse trying to regain control of its Instinctive broods isn't going to have the energy to also summon a bunch of new troops out of hiding/hibernation/whatever.  It eliminates the luck factor of a longshot rally roll followed by a really high spawn roll.

The problem is that no one I know actually reads the dice that way.  We don't roll the die then apply the modifiers, then compare to the target.  We want to know what the die needs to say before we throw it.  Virtually everyone I've played with has a strong tendency to add the modifiers and figure out what you need to get on the die roll, i.e. "-2 for broken, no one in 30cm, no 'mob up' bonus... I need a 5 to rally the Stompas" rather than "I rolled a 4, -2 for being broken, no one in range, no 'mob up'... that's a 2, so it fails."

My guess is that's part of the perceived fiddliness.

Including the rally mods in the spawning calculations would accomplish a similar effect (the math would be almost identical) without the perceived fiddliness.

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 Post subject: [Pre-release 8.5] Spawning
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 7:25 pm 
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My opinion:

keep it simple

The 8.4 spawning rules are a good way to get this. I like the approach there. they are as simple as every other rally test, and that?s the way it should be.

To Hierodule Spawning: Sucking or not, it?s a thing of personal tase. I have no problem with the option of respqawning them If you look at the numbers, it?s REALLY luck if you get one of them back. There are several reasons to justify that. One of them could be the underground "breed" of one of them and it get?s alive by the call of the hive mind. A second one would be the predatorian behavior, not caring about things arount it until the call arrives. A third one could be the hibernation like bears in winter time. a third one could be simple the birth of it like that: "Oh, is it sweet, male, or female? Oh, it?s a Hierodule!" by the brood mother. Many ways to justify it. As said above always a thing of personal tase.

You respawn it if the conditions are optimized, else you will not get the 9 points needed. And optimized conditions justify the spawning of a big bug.

Spawning is the less critical rules. I have more problems with the easy dying of the Dominatrix (look at the points you need to protect her and look at the stats you get for this) and the vulnerability of the Bio Titans. (Hierophant and 4 DC?!? for 275?? I am willing to compare it with a subjugator....)

as always only my 0,02 cent

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 Post subject: [Pre-release 8.5] Spawning
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 7:52 pm 
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 Post subject: [Pre-release 8.5] Spawning
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 2:43 am 
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All this talk about creatures just wandering around aimlessly and popping into existence randomly is just plain silly.

Spawning is an abstraction, pure and simple. ?Because of the facts that:

--Tyranids almost ALWAYS act last (SR 1), except possibly against IG/Orks
--Tyranids have virtually no effective shooting (in the last 3 games I can count the number of actual shooting casualties I have caused on my hands and have fingers left over)
--Much of the Tyranid list is VERY slow (15-20cm on the vast majority of models, as opposed to othr races vehicles, transports, etc.)

...Tyranids get to spawn some casualties back. ?Thats the main reason. ?My opponents are learning a couple things very quickly. ?Yes, those Warriors may get to Spawn back 3 more Gaunt stands...doesn't help much when you kill 12 of them in a turn. ?Yes, I can bring back a Carni or two...but not all 4 of them you just killed. ?I can even bring back a Hierodule...assuming I am using a Dominatrix with no enemy within 30cm and near a Brood Nest.

When Spawning is really overwhelming is when your opponent is killing 3-4 stands of little things a turn from each Swarm, then you get all or most of them back. ?But thats just poor tactics. ?Its not as if every army in existence can't outmaneuver the 15cm move on the Warriors leading the Swarm, or simply engage them with superior FF numbers and drive them Instinctive.

As for the actual mechanisms of the Spawning action, who cares? ?My Gods, but worrying about that is nothing but hyper anal nit-picking. ?Its a massive Tyranid invasion of a planet. ?Tyranids don't do things half-assed, last time I checked.

There will be swarms of Gaunts and other lesser creatures everywhere. ?Some larger creatures will be with them, such as Fexes and Slugs with Guns, lurking and hunting. ?Large spawnings (multiple Fexes, for example, or a Trygon or Hierodule) are nothing more complex than a Mycetic Spore drop.

Hive mind surveys the battlefield from orbit, through the eyes of every Tyranid in Synapse range, all at once..."Oh dear. ?The Dominatrix over by the city has lost one of its bodyguard Hierodules. ?I'd best drop another one down to protect it...its far too valuable to lose."

Whoosh. ?Mycetic Spore drop from orbit. ?Oops. ?Failed your Spawning check? ?That Lunar Cruiser must have intercepted the Hive Ship and distracted it or injured it enough that the drop never happened.

Its all just an abstraction. ?If you get bogged down into details of fluff, you lose sight of the most important thing...do the rules work, and are they fair?

Again and again I say this...let the fluff (stories, 40k armies, whatever) guide us, not force us to march lock-step with it. ?Its a place to start, not the final word.






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