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quick 8.3 question on Instinctive
Chroma
 Post subject: quick 8.3 question on Instinctive
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:17 pm 
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(alansa @ Aug. 15 2007,14:51)
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because the original rules aren't cut down!

Ah, I meant if "Instinctive" was just going to be a cut-down version of "Broken"... why not just use "Broken" then? ?Sorry for the misunderstanding.

As to instinctive swarms being assaulted, they are treated just like normal, unbroken formations being assulted; they suffer the standard effects, not the "wiped-out" that broken formations suffer.

If "instinctive" does become an official part of the Tyranid ruleset, I will be including a "Design Note" about it as well.

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alansa
 Post subject: quick 8.3 question on Instinctive
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:35 pm 
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I'm wibbling now, but...

Sometimes, in life we have a 'thing'. We have that thing for a long time and get used to it. One day we get a new 'thing'. Sometime later someone notices similarities and compatibilities between the two 'things' and compares the them

What he discovers is that the two thing represent specialisations of a more generic and universal concept.

In epic the concept in question is "When you get battered, there are further, serious consequences, other than just losing men"

Broken, I feel, is the specialisation of this concept for human type races (there are certain further specialisations of this in the case of orks and most notably space marines)

Instincitive, I perceive, while not being 'broken', is a specialisation of the generic concept listed above, adapted for the nids - along side, but not the same as, broken.

Thats why I feel it fits in nicely with the 'architecture' of the game, rather than being a completely separate additional 'bolt-on'

As I said, I am wibbling... must stay off the cider :)

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Chroma
 Post subject: quick 8.3 question on Instinctive
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:59 pm 
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(alansa @ Aug. 15 2007,15:35)
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Instincitive, I perceive, while not being 'broken', is a specialisation of the generic concept listed above, adapted for the nids - along side, but not the same as, broken.

Thats why I feel it fits in nicely with the 'architecture' of the game, rather than being a completely separate additional 'bolt-on'

Oh, I totally agree with this viewpoint!  I'm really going to try to make "instinctive" fit into the EPIC ruleset as seamlessly as possible.

One of the problems currently is that people are taking their knowledge of the "broken" rules and just assuming they apply to "instinctive".

Playtesting should begin to address that as things progress. (And I *do* believe we are progressing!)

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alansa
 Post subject: quick 8.3 question on Instinctive
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:35 pm 
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well, as we have seen broken has many nasty effects. All we have to do is see which ones apply to Instinctive (and possibly invent some new ones, maybe)

I must say, I do really like the fact that nids are now 'plumbed' into the blast marker system. You are attempting to implement the "When you get battered, there are further, serious consequences, other than just losing men" concept, which the nids lacked before, in a 'nid type way.

I dunno when you put that in, I only have a look at the nid section here every now and then but I'd like to kiss you for that!

(definintely better stay off the cider!)

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Chroma
 Post subject: quick 8.3 question on Instinctive
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:39 pm 
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(alansa @ Aug. 15 2007,17:35)
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I dunno when you put that in, I only have a look at the nid section here every now and then but I'd like to kiss you for that!

(definintely better stay off the cider!)

I like cider...  :D

But my wife might take issue with the kissing...  :O

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Markconz
 Post subject: quick 8.3 question on Instinctive
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 12:47 am 
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(Chroma @ Aug. 15 2007,14:59)
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I'm really going to try to make "instinctive" fit into the EPIC ruleset as seamlessly as possible.

One of the problems currently is that people are taking their knowledge of the "broken" rules and just assuming they apply to "instinctive".

You've hit on the essential problem here I think. It reminds me of how remote control manufacturers insisted their devices were great despite the fact that no one knew how to program a video. After spending ages insisting it was peoples fault no theirs, manufacturers eventually figured out that perhaps computer engineers are not the best people to test user friendliness on. Lets not repeat a similar mistake here.

I read the rules several times the night before I played first game with them. Then played two games using it (consulting the rules several times), then sat down and read the rules over once again. Still confused... that is not a good sign. I have an A grade average and I'm doing a demanding post grad course... if I have trouble with these rules that says something I think (go ahead - make fun of me if you like... :D)  The fact this thread exists and this issue is being discussed is also a sign that things could be improved considerably I think.

Psychologically there is something counterintuitive/confusing about the current approach. It is also overly long, as are the list of modifications to what is essentially 'broken' with bells on. Maybe consider what you learned in undergrad psyc about how the human brain can only 'chunk' and manipulate so much information in working memory at one time easily.


Look at 40k. Tyranids can break and fall back and suffer consequences just like anything else. They then have a title in the special rules section titled 'Instinctive Behaviour' which has 3 short bullet points detailing minor changes to the usual broken rules. 3 minor modifications - that's all, not enough to confuse most people.

Aiming for refinement so that it is something much more like that would be more elegant than the current approach I think - far more user friendly. Ie a 'broken but' approach as several people have been suggesting in various forms.


By the way the other two titles in the 40k tyranid special rules section are 'Synapse Creatures' detailing how they work (which is first up), and 'Move through cover' (which is third). All up it takes just over half a page (but then there is more on tyranid special arms and armament of course).

@ Hena - didn't you have a goal of getting all the tyranid stuff down to a single page - thoughts?  ???

And yes we are progressing  :;):

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Markconz
 Post subject: quick 8.3 question on Instinctive
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:36 am 
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Ah I see, mission accomplished then.

Now for your next mission impossible...all on one page? ;)

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