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[Experimental] Tyranid Defensive Structures
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [Experimental] Tyranid Defensive Structures
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 3:55 pm 
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I'm just gonna post here to say that I'd far rather see this Meotic Spore Cloud as part of the main list, rather than having swarms of (low flying!) gargoyles hopping up to chase into the engines of jet fighters.

It's closer to today's background to have Meotic Spores, rather than reverting to the old compromise measure of having suicide Gargoyles.


Right now we're just exchanging one ad-hoc compromise for another, older compromise.

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Markconz
 Post subject: [Experimental] Tyranid Defensive Structures
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 8:06 pm 
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(Chroma @ Mar. 08 2007,13:42)
QUOTE

(Markconz @ Mar. 08 2007,13:59)
QUOTE
Saying it is not Titan Killer is like saying a super zzap gun isn't 'titan killer' its 'zzap'! Meaningless arguing over semantics. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck its a duck!

So you would classify barbed wire emplacements and minefields as Titan Killer areas as well?  To me calling them TK makes them sound much more terrifying than a 1-in-6 chance of a hit.  Supa-zapp guns hit on a, base 3+... that's a lot better.

The Meiotic Spore Cloud simply mirrors the rule for minefields presented in the Assault scenario: making an "air" area dangerous terrain for aircraft.  It's a 15cm radius of "danger"; it's avoidable and has a 1-in-6 chance of going away at the end of a turn.

How is it so overpowered?  In the past few Tyranid battle reports aircraft have barely featured, so any points spent on AA would be, basically, wasted.

Taken as a whole, the list of Tyranid Fortifications leaves the Tyranid player with tough choices.  And that's good.

Aircraft have much more limited in their ability to avoid minefields due to turning arcs and compulsory movement , and weapons that mean their role is much more likely to take them through multiple spores (which are only 50 points!). A/C are proportionally more expensive than other units.  

Your on the wrong track with the comparison you are making with a supa-zzap gun, the point is both are are TK and ignore armour, not that one is more powered than the other. (But for the sake of the argument you bring up you forget that the mines multiply by the number of aircraft... so has the same capability versus 3 aircraft and more ability versus more aircraft. Effectively AA6+ TK, and multiplies by the number of aircraft).

Have you actually played this yet? Saying a/c haven't featured much in battle reports so far (so it doesn't matter how overpowered something is because points are just wasted), is not a good argument. My opponents first reaction was that it was ridiculously good for spore mines (which are notoriously bad against armoured vehicles in 40k, even the anti-vehicle ones), and probably the best AA in the game (though that was at 35 points with a 30cm range).

My main concern is that these should definitely not go into the main list in this form, so if they are staying limited to this scenario, we just won't use them or will house rule them to something less overpowered.

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Experimental] Tyranid Defensive Structures
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 8:28 pm 
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(Markconz @ Mar. 08 2007,19:06)
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Aircraft have much more limited in their ability to avoid minefields due to turning arcs and compulsory movement , and weapons that mean their role is much more likely to take them through multiple spores (which are only 50 points!). A/C are proportionally more expensive than other units.

I just have to laugh at this for a moment. ?One of the complaints about the the Gargoyle AA is that 15cm range is way to easy to avoid, but then the same range on the Meiotic Spore Cloud is too tough for aircraft to avoid.

You just can't please everybody. ? :D ?
But for the sake of the argument you bring up you forget that the mines multiply by the number of aircraft... so has the same capability versus 3 aircraft and more ability versus more aircraft. Effectively AA6+ TK, and multiplies by the number of aircraft

*All* flak is made "more powerful" if the number of enemy aircraft are increased, I don't see how that's a strike against the Spore Clouds.

Unless you're talking about 'Uge Sqwadrons of Fighta-Bommerz or something, most armies have smaller, fixed size squadrons.
Have you actually played this yet? Saying a/c haven't featured much in battle reports so far (so it doesn't matter how overpowered something is because points are just wasted), is not a good argument. My opponents first reaction was that it was ridiculously good for spore mines (which are notoriously bad against armoured vehicles in 40k, even the anti-vehicle ones), and probably the best AA in the game (though that was at 35 points with a 30cm range).
I haven't actually played this yet, too much stuff to test, too few games.  :(

Yes, at 35 points and 30cm range, they are *obscene*, that level of range/points is ridiculous. ?As well, this is v1.0, so it's experimental, the point value could totally be changed if it's overpowering.

And we aren't talking about clouds of little spore mines, we're talking about clouds of these: *BIG* spore mines.

They are "evolved" to defend against aircraft and are a serious threat in the air.
[quoteMy main concern is that these should definitely not go into the main list in this form, so if they are staying limited to this scenario, we just won't use them or will house rule them to something less overpowered.[/quote]
I don't think they belong in the Tournament list because they are a passive form of air defence and, I feel, the list describes a more "active" Tyranid swarm.

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maruma
 Post subject: [Experimental] Tyranid Defensive Structures
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:29 pm 
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As I said in AA topic, I like AA spores than AA gargoyles.

Then, how about an idea of spores as simple AA units ?
Like this...

MIEOTIC SPORE SACKS (naming from FW,but can be Meiotic Spores or any)
Perhaps Uncommon Brood?
Type     Speed Armour CC   FF
Inf or LV 20cm     -         -     -(or6+)
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
bio acid spore mines 15cm(or30cm?) AA6+

Note:Brood(2or3?) Skimmer
Points:Cheap if their attacks are suiciding/ slightly high if not suiciding

* If their attacks are suiciding, it represents all spores use "self destruction"attacks.
* If not, it represents "spores are many.some detonate but others remain".
* If they have FF6+, it represents the spore goes down and detonates on a ground enemy.
* Skimmer represents they are floating, and always can FF if they have it.
(Popup or Overwatch are meanless for them)
* They should have no ZOC...? (or have ZOC for less special rules?)


It is simple.
It is not terrain. It is not random-moving.
It is spawnable.
It is a method which does not strengthen Gargoyles(and hike their points).

You can say to your opponent...
"They can only **cm AA6+ attack. Very poor AA units but I can respawn them! :cool: "

rather than...

"This marker represents spores, it is dangerous terrain for Aircraft, even for WE, and radom moving, etc etc..."
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [Experimental] Tyranid Defensive Structures
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:36 pm 
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I don't think they belong in the Tournament list because they are a passive form of air defence and, I feel, the list describes a more "active" Tyranid swarm.


I'll say it for the third time.


Just because they drift for much of the time, that doesn't mean they're entirely passive.


They move over long distances at the command of the synapse creatures (And if there's a better argument for allowing Synapse Creatures to spawn reserve spore clouds during the game, I've yet to hear it).

They move very fast towards close-by enemies on instinct.

They don't just drift aimlessly.

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Markconz
 Post subject: [Experimental] Tyranid Defensive Structures
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:37 am 
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[quote="Chroma,Mar. 08 2007,18:28"]
One of the complaints about the the Gargoyle AA is that 15cm range is way to easy to avoid, but then the same range on the Meiotic Spore Cloud is too tough for aircraft to avoid.


I never believed that 15cm range was easy to avoid. I think that was something that sounded good to people in theory rather than in practice. You can have gargoyles all over the place, and planes have to disengage as well as hit the target. I would like to see a few more playtests - a variety of ideas should be playtested in more detail before we jump to any rapid conclusion IMO.

That spore mines were horrendous using 'difficult terrain' format didn't really occur to me until I played the first game and actually thought more about what was happening.

*All* flak is made "more powerful" if the number of enemy aircraft are increased, I don't see how that's a strike against the Spore Clouds.

Unless you're talking about 'Uge Sqwadrons of Fighta-Bommerz or something, most armies have smaller, fixed size squadrons.


Yes the big group thing is important. All aircraft are automatically attacked by spore clouds, against other AA aircraft gain increase protection from groups. Eldar and Orks have 3+ squadrons, Orks typically 5+. The proportional increase in effectiveness of spore mines vs aircraft needs to be taken into account in the points cost if spores are used in an 'auto-attack each aircraft' format.


Have you actually played this yet? Saying a/c haven't featured much in battle reports so far (so it doesn't matter how overpowered something is because points are just wasted), is not a good argument. My opponents first reaction was that it was ridiculously good for spore mines (which are notoriously bad against armoured vehicles in 40k, even the anti-vehicle ones), and probably the best AA in the game (though that was at 35 points with a 30cm range).
I haven't actually played this yet, too much stuff to test, too few games.  :(


Yes I would like to see things slowed down a bit on this issue so we have time to test a range of options. I'm using gargoyles again in two games on Sunday to give that another try.

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Experimental] Tyranid Defensive Structures
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:16 pm 
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So...

Any comments on the *other* items in the list other than the Spore Clouds?   :D

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [Experimental] Tyranid Defensive Structures
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:24 pm 
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(Chroma @ Mar. 09 2007,13:16)
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So...

Any comments on the *other* items in the list other than the Spore Clouds?   :D

I'm only really interested in items that will go into the main Tyranid list to be honest, since that's what 99% of games will be played with.

As such, only the Spore Clouds strike me as candidates for inclusion.


That aside, this is an interesting set of rules.




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Chroma
 Post subject: [Experimental] Tyranid Defensive Structures
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:32 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Mar. 09 2007,13:24)
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I'm only really interested in items that will go into the main Tyranid list to be honest, since that's what 99% of games will be played with.

Honestly E&C, I *HIGHLY* recommend trying out other scenarios than just the standard "Tournament Scenario", it opens up all kinds of new gameplay in EPIC... giving you whole new types of games... and you don't need to buy any new models!  *laugh*

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Markconz
 Post subject: [Experimental] Tyranid Defensive Structures
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:36 pm 
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(Chroma @ Mar. 09 2007,12:32)
QUOTE

(Evil and Chaos @ Mar. 09 2007,13:24)
QUOTE
I'm only really interested in items that will go into the main Tyranid list to be honest, since that's what 99% of games will be played with.

Honestly E&C, I *HIGHLY* recommend trying out other scenarios than just the standard "Tournament Scenario", it opens up all kinds of new gameplay in EPIC... giving you whole new types of games... and you don't need to buy any new models!  *laugh*

My thoughts are similar to what Neal Hunt said about the Bio-Titan Weapon list Chroma.

Nice ideas but we should really be concentrating on the main list at this time. Once we get that sorted I would be happy to return to this and the Bio-Titan weapons....  :D

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [Experimental] Tyranid Defensive Structures
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:37 pm 
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As far as I'm aware, the 'tournament armylists' are only balanced for the 'tournament scenario'?




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Chroma
 Post subject: [Experimental] Tyranid Defensive Structures
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:43 pm 
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(Hena @ Mar. 09 2007,13:27)
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I haven't played the assault, but could perhaps try some unless there is more interesting stuff to test :D.

The Assault scenario is a *LOT* of fun, makes a very different game of EPIC, that's for sure!

But I'm vaguely worried about the effect of the brood nest, as an unbalancing factor (5d3 for dom anyone?).

One must remember that:

a) the Defender (Tyranid) player will have less points than the Attack in the Assault scenario.

b) the scenario itself represents an attack on a Tyranid "strong point" so there spawning there, and creatures in hibernation, would be much greater than at the forward edge of battle.

The burrows are +X points per unit? WEs count as starting DC units?
I recommend reading the Assault scenario. ?"Entrenchment", or "Burrowing" for the Bugs, means your units start in 5+ cover at the start of the game, regardless of the terrain they are in. ?As well, any non-WE formations/swams can be "concealed" using hidden markers so the enemy doesn't actually know what's out there until they "probe" the area (HEY NOW!)

And I can't come up with a good use of 3 FF6+ attacks. So what exactly should the chimney be doing in the field?
The Spore Chimney is a "defensive" item, placed near objectives or such, so that, if the enemy stops near them, they get a Blast marker, because the area is rife with spores and Tyranid particles making it tough on them and making them more vulnerable to Tyranid counter-attack; it's not really a direct combat unit.

"Normal" armies get pill-boxes and such, and I wanted to include a weird, Tyranid alternative.

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