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Feeback on WEs and AVs

Lightbringer

Post subject: Feeback on WEs and AVs

Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 12:26 pm

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Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2005 11:09 am
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Ho Jaldon

I had 3 battles at the weekend with my bugs using 7.1 with the proposed AV and WE stats you posted on the 1st on Nov..

http://www.tacticalwargames.net/cgi-bin....41;st=0

I'll write up a summary of the battles themselves later but I thought it would be useful for you to have some feedback on how the big bugs performed.

Harridan: Used him once against the Black Legion. ?He placed a blast marker in turn one and took a hit then led an assault with 7 gargoyles in turn 2 against a Chaos Marine formation which he won. I like the fact that he is now DC3 with 5+RA and although I loved the MW template of old he now has to get up close and personal to deliver his punch - which is how I play my bugs. The extra 3 CC attacks may appear too good at first glance but as he is fairly average at FF (5+) I feel this is balanced. Overall - most balanced Harridan to date.

Hierophant: Used him in my second battle again against the Black Legion and he found himself on the recieving end of an assault for a change in turn 2 : I think my BL opponent was suprised by just how many CC attacks he had for 250 points (potentially 13 attacks!) - however the big fella had been the victim of a round one orbital pin point hit and was bleeding badly - he took a stack of FF hits from those pesky chaos marines and failed just enough saves to die. He did take a stack of daemons with him though. ?I took him because of the fantastic CC ability which led me to wondering why the Hydraphant does not have the Ripper Tentacles in the proposed stats. ?

As the stats stand I'll take the Hierophant every time. I was a fan of the bio-morphs but am happy with the Heirophant as he is. I just think the Hydraphant is not that much better and for an extra 100 points he's not worth taking at the mo'.

Malefactor: Used at least one in all 3 battles - I even managed to use the new 15cm ranged attack after a double in prep for the following turn's assault! This was agains Orkybob's new Marine Chapter "The Stormbringers". Trouble was he retreated at the beginning of the next turn which meant he was out of range of the big bugs and those plodding Carnifexes (more on them later!). I used the Malefactor with a 5+FF as opposed to 4+ and as a result he didn't really kill all that much.

That said for 50 points he's still going to make the starting line up next time - the little ranged attack combined with the lower FF ability makes him more of a support bug and less of a killing machine in his own right. Overall - he's about right IMO.

Haruspex: In the past this fella has had a short ranged MW ignore cover spray as well as TK attacks - since losing his nozzle and filling down his claws he's half the bug he once was. I just couldn't get his to do much at all.

My opponents are learning how to play bugs and are giving up ground rather than end up in CC - only my infiltrators are getting into CC these days so as it stands this fella is on the bench and I will be fielding the Malefactor (as Jaldon feared might happen). Maybe I need to re-think where and how to use the Haruspex but in a GT battle he just plods about and gets shot up.

I didn't get to try any of the others listed in the new stats thread but would like to comment on my Carnifexes and the issue of AV CC bugs in general. I love Carnifexes, they are some of the best epic nid figures out there ..but they always, and I do mean always, underperform. I know we are trying to keep points down to make the army more horde-like but my honest opinion is that the current crop of CC AV bugs are not worth taking in GT battles. If I want to get into CC then I will take hormies, Lictors, genestealers, bio-titans and Trygons (if they retain their infiltrator ability) - I can't see the point of taking the plodders - ?Harupsexes and Carnifexes.

Hope this is useful.

Lightbringer
:cool:

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Jaldon

Post subject: Feeback on WEs and AVs

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 2:20 am

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Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 6:38 am
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Location: Utah, pick a Pacific Island the other half of the year.

As I am working on the AV/WE part of the list this helps a lot feedback is what I need to feed

As for the Carnies, with a move of 15cm they can garrison in a GT battle, and I always take a unit of just Carnies and then spawn the lil' fellas later for the swarm. After they have placed themselves deep into the enemy table half, usually in a handy woods.

Using them this way has given my opponents huge headaches as yes they can move away from the carnies, but often an objective is left horribly exposed by the move off. So even if the Carnies don't achieve the hallowed CC attack they often accomplish their task by scaring off opponents, and I am still a happy bug leader.'

Sometimes it what a formation does indirectly that is important to victory in a battle, it doesn't always have to be what they do directly.

Thanks Lightbringer

Jaldon

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Lightbringer

Post subject: Feeback on WEs and AVs

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 5:11 pm

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Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2005 11:09 am
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Jaldon - I take your point about the indirect effects units can have on a battle although a garrisoning unit of screamer killers is not only going to be target practice for any enemy ranged fire but also FF practice for any half decent enemy formations as they move up the board.

Seeing as Screamer Killers get into CC about as often as an Eldar player leaves his Revenants at home, then the question is why field them? As Hena points out he rarely fields SKs any more favouring Vemonfexes - which are the same points, have the same armour, same 4+CC (albeit without the +1MWCC) , have a 1 better FF plus a ranged weapon. They are clearly the preferable Carnifex to have in a GT battle.

Is there any chance of a small boost to the SKs or do you consider them balanced? How about if their extra attack was MW TK(1)??

Lightbringer
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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Feeback on WEs and AVs

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 5:37 pm

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Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
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Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire

How about making Screamer-Killers 20cm speed?

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ragnarok

Post subject: Feeback on WEs and AVs

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 10:27 pm

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Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:43 pm
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Location: Reading, England

(Hena @ Nov. 16 2006,20:16)

QUOTE

(Lightbringer @ Nov. 16 2006,18:11)

QUOTE

Is there any chance of a small boost to the SKs or do you consider them balanced? How about if their extra attack was MW TK(1)??

No TK to Infantry or Armoured Vehicles. Nor I want to raise the speed either. I was thinking Inv save, but unfortunately it can protect from TK as well.

Well a TK(1) attack could be justified. Since the screamer killer does represent the entire spectrum of CC carnifex's out there. From the cheap as 100pt screamer killer up to the 300pt close combat godfex. All of which can crush a tank or decimate a squad in a single round of close combat. Even against super heavies they can do 1 or 2 ponts of damage.

S9/10 +2D6 gets though tank armour almost always gets through tank armour. It only has an 8% chance of failing and a 16% chance of only glancing AV14, leaving 76ish% chance of a penatrating hit

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Feeback on WEs and AVs

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 10:33 pm

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Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
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How about changing the Screamer Killer Carnifex to +2EA MW.

I'd find that more paletable than TK Fexes.

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Jaldon

Post subject: Feeback on WEs and AVs

Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 12:31 am

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Definite No to MWTK Fexes.

Considering the average speed of the Nid Army right now a 20cm speed could probably sneak in.

However I would really like to keep them pretty much as they are now, maybe opting for CCMW +2A.

Will try to have new AV/WE stats up this weekend.

Thanks All...............

Jaldon

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Chroma

Post subject: Feeback on WEs and AVs

Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 12:54 am

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Location: Montréal, QC, Canada

(Jaldon @ Nov. 16 2006,23:31)

QUOTE

Considering the average speed of the Nid Army right now a 20cm speed could probably sneak in.

However I would really like to keep them pretty much as they are now, maybe opting for CCMW +2A.

I agree on no CCTK for Carnies, but *PLEASE* no 20cm move either! If they can't be garrisoned, they're just gonna plod along all game.

I'm pro +2EA MWCC attacks for them though.

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torgoch

Post subject: Feeback on WEs and AVs

Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 5:40 pm

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Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:45 am
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Not played Epic 'nids much, but I've found myself not entirely comfortable with the current Carnifex.

Granted, the Screamer killer is the original epic 'fex, but it isn't much use in the game and doesn't really reflect how carnifexes tend to be played or portrayed.

I'd favour stating the Carnifex as the GW archetype, big claws and a gun, and making that the set option for the fex. The fex should be potent in CC: the claws could gain macro-weapon, but without the extra attack (much like the fire dragons fusion guns)?

The VC seems reasonable at Venom Cannon AP5+/AT6+, although I think AP6+/AT5+ more accurately reflects a VC in 40K. The venom cannon is pretty against vehicles even though it can only glance, but really isn't much use against infantry.

Definately not 20cm speed though. Fexes are not fast in any way.

Unfortunately, the model is a screamer killer, but there are so many variations of carnifexes now in 40K is it worth committing to two set variations in epic? Could we not just assume the carnifex is representative?

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Lion in the Stars

Post subject: Feeback on WEs and AVs

Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 9:07 pm

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Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 11:01 pm
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Thought I'd throw in my 2cents. The typical 'fex I see in 40k is either a venomfex of some flavor (sometimes twin VC, sometimes VC/Strangler, sometimes VC/Devourer), or the 'dakkafex' with 2 twin devourers. You almost never see a CC 'fex because they're usually too slow to get into combat (when you spend half or more of the game getting into combat, it's a waste of points). Also, even a shooty 'fex is capable of shredding a vehicle in CC, without having lots of attacks.

IMO, (and not looking at the list right now), there should be two or three basic 'fex profiles (there are 3 basic 'fex uses in 40k). Venom'fex, dakka'fex, and S-K'fex. All should have MW CC attacks.
The venom'fex is OK as-is.
The S-K'fex should have at least +1 extra MW CC attack, maybe 2.
The dakka'fex is tougher to stat, though. Devourers are really a ranged weapon (since the idea is to stand back and shoot, not shoot on the way into CC), but they're only 15cm range and sacrifice a lot of long-ranged and CC potential to be able to shred infantry. I'm talking about multiple AP4+ attacks from those guns. On average, a dakkafex in 40k will generate 6 wounds per turn of shooting. that's 2 dead Marines, on average, or a full stand of Guard. That's nasty.

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ragnarok

Post subject: Feeback on WEs and AVs

Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 11:45 am

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Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:43 pm
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I think I shall add my own ranting on the use of fexs in 40K. As LitS has said there are three basic types of fex. Long-range fire support, usually armed with a venom cannon and a barbed strangler, with enhanced senses. Then depending on the points available a few defensive bio morphs (such as extra wounds/toughness and an increased save). Other variants of the fire support fex are armed with a twin linked big gun (either VC or BS) or a big gun and a mid sized gun (ie a death spitter). These variants don’t do as well as the versatile yet effect CV BS combo, 2 S10 shots and a S8 ordnance blast all AP4 (I think) ruin anything they smack.

Next up is the short range support. Out of all of the variants available the dakka/worm/devil fex is the most popular. Flesh hooks enhanced senses and two twin linked devourers (all for 114pts). This beastie can hang off of a wall (so it can’t be charged by hidden powerfists) and pump out 8 S6 shots a turn that reroll misses and failed to wound. Other variants again have defensive biomorphs and possible spinebanks/ spore back. Though this makes them heavy support rather than elites. Also variants exist where they have death spitters rather than devourers, but these are less successful on a MC rather than a warrior (due to the upper strength limit on the DS).

Finally there is the close assault beastie. Most players find them less useful, due to them having to march across the board into a hail of fire. So when they are taken they are usually kept as cheap as possible. A pair of scything talons, +1WS, +1I and flesh hooks being the normal for an elites choice and +1Sv as well as a heavy support choice.

There is, however, a small school of thought that believes I the heavy assault beast. A carnie with every assault biomorph you can think of. These beasties normally come in at 270+ pts and almost never make them back. However they will absorb a lot of fire and allow other creatures to live.

From my experience with a nidzilla army (4 carnies, 2 tyrants a stealer brood and 50 gaunts), carnies only work well in large numbers. If you take one or two then they can be picked off with easy by enemy heavy weapons. However a solid wall of them charging forwards can crush almost everything.

By using cover and the fact that MC block line of sight you can disrupt the enemies fire discipline and make him spread out his fire across several beasts.

I think what I am saying is that assault fex main use is a fear tactic. Having a wall of them rush forwards can unnerve an opponent, even if they don’t do any actual damage. This is reflected by what Jaldon says about using them to force the enemy to do what you want him to do. Having a huge carnie herd in one area of the battlefield will make the enemy think about moving to the other side. Saying that. I don’t want my carnies job being that of a Shepard. Driving the prey-things towards the weak gaunts.

Saying that I don’t think that giving the screamer killer +2MW is the right way of going about things. True it makes them monsters in combat, able to kill upto three stands of infantry, but that isn’t what carnies do. They only have 4 to 10 attacks, not nearly enough to wipe out 15 marines. Most background on them have them tipping over tanks and smashing though fortifications like they weren’t there. We need something to represent this ability (in the medusa campaign I had carnies scaling the mortis line wall!).

Next up the venomfex. I think we should go with the standard armament on this guy with a VC and a barbed stranger. The barbed strangler could have the following profile

Range 30cm, AP4+/AT6+ disrupt. (seeing a gaint plant trying to eat your mates could be quite distressing)

Finally the middle fex. I’m not too sure about this guy. I would love to see him in the list, however (as far as I can remember) we are only going to get the venom fex and SC models (here’s hoping). Though if forge world will pick up the challenge, and I have been pestering them to, then I would love to see stats for him.

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ragnarok

Post subject: Feeback on WEs and AVs

Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 12:38 pm

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Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:43 pm
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Location: Reading, England

You know what Hena, I got so caught up in talking about fexi I forgot one of the main thrusts of the post, the screamer killer.

As you say, poeple stay away from this shy beast, so it isn't worth it compared to the venomfex.

I can see 3 ways around this problem.

1) Up its armour back to 4+RA. an assault brute should have more staying power than long range support

2) Drop its cost. If it isn't cutting it make it more attactive

3) Drop its spawning cost. since it wont have any biosymbiotes, it should be easier to grow a new one.

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