Tyranid v7.1 |
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nealhunt
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Post subject: Tyranid v7.1  Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 4:21 pm |
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I would still very much like to see AA templates removed. The weapons could simply be done with the "AND" notation so that ground fire was template and the AA fire line used normal notation.
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Neal
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Eric.R.
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Post subject: Tyranid v7.1 Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 4:50 pm |
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I would like to throw a little math out into a review of the list. ?Why math? ?`Cause after Generalship it is the greatest factor on the game. ?So here we go:
The Math behind Spawning (using Hive Tyrant, GSN, or Vituperator as an example):
?A Rally test within 30cm of enemy - 3+ (2/3 chance of success)
?B Rally test without 30cm of enemy - 2+ (5/6 chance of success)
?1 Average of a 1D3+1 spawn points within 30cm of enemy - 3
?2 Average of a 1D3+1 spawn points without 30cm of enemy, or within 30cm of enemy and using a spore - 5
?3 Average of a 1D3+1 spawn points without 30cm and using a spore - 7
Results:
Situation ?A & ?1 => 2.00 points per turn OR 6.00 points over 3 turns
Situation ?A & ?2 => 3.33 points per turn OR 10.0 points over 3 turns
Situation ?B & ?1 => 4.17 points per turn OR 12.5 points over 3 turns
Situation ?B & ?2 => 5.83 points per turn OR 17.5 points over 3 turns
These results represent what points a SC will produce on average per turn or the average over three turns (which is the minumum before counting objectives). ?Looking at this it is quite disheartening nowing that, at best, a Hive Tyrant can spawn only 17~18 common broods (or 3 uncommon and 2~3 common) [on average] during a course of 3 turns.
Although I can understand the reasoning for these changes I find that making 2 drastic changes (reduced spawning point generation and increased spawning cost) for 1 simple situation too much. ?The increased point cost would have worked fine changing the ability of a Hive Tyrant spawning 2 ? Exocrines to 1 ? Exocrines (if you are lucky).
The SC in this example also suffer from the fact that if they are in control of only Inf units your opponent simply switches to AT fire to pinpoint the SC, or in a mixed brood position themselves in such a way that the SC is the only WE/AV in range.
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nealhunt
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Post subject: Tyranid v7.1 Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 6:28 pm |
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Looking at this it is quite disheartening nowing that, at best, a Hive Tyrant can spawn only 17~18 common broods (or 3 uncommon and 2~3 common) [on average] during a course of 3 turns. |
 You're going to have to explain that.
That's a 100 point creature and 45 points of Spores spawning back ~250 points of creatures. Even if you assume that broods are overcosted by double to compensate for their spawning (it's nowhere near that much), you still come out with an even return just from the broods being spawned.
Even in a more realistic consideration (say, 1 turn outside 30cm, 2 turns in, no spores), a 100 point Tyrant is likely to spawn back 100 points of broods.
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Chroma
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Post subject: Tyranid v7.1 Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 6:35 pm |
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| Quote (nealhunt @ 23 May 2006 (18:28)) | | Even in a more realistic consideration (say, 1 turn outside 30cm, 2 turns in, no spores), a 100 point Tyrant is likely to spawn back 100 points of broods. |
The problem is, none of those Common broods can be used to screen the Tyrant, so it's more likely to be killed than get a chance to spawn for the full game.
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Eric.R.
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Post subject: Tyranid v7.1 Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 7:30 pm |
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Even in a more realistic consideration (say, 1 turn outside 30cm, 2 turns in, no spores), a 100 point Tyrant is likely to spawn back 100 points of broods. |
In the situation you provide you would actually have 8 spawning points to Bring back about 160 points of common brood; I will use this information in my rebutal.
Chroma basically covered one point.
The other being: Yes, that is 160 points of common brood OVER 3 turns but that really only means 1, 2, or maybe 3 common brood units per turn (i.e. ~2.67 spawning points points per turn or ~53.33 points). Not my idea of a wave of `Nid infestation which is consistently aspoused as the reason for the end of turn spawn. And, 2/3rds of that may only be usefull as you may never reach the forth round to make use of the units spawned at the end of the 3rd.
My main issue is not with the fact that I cannot respawn Uncommons in great numbers (if at all) but with the fact that by trying to reduce/prevent it it has reduced the main flavour and concept of the Tyranid army.
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nealhunt
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Post subject: Tyranid v7.1 Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 9:24 pm |
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Personally, I'm just about to the point of thinking that Spawning simply isn't going to work. Dropping the points and simply making the Nids start with their full gargantuan horde is always an option.
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ragnarok
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Post subject: Tyranid v7.1 Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 9:35 pm |
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| Quote (nealhunt @ 23 May 2006 (21:24)) | | Personally, I'm just about to the point of thinking that Spawning simply isn't going to work. ?Dropping the points and simply making the Nids start with their full gargantuan horde is always an option. |
The problem with that approach is that the horde could just be too big, we all remember the Termigaunt Terror.
I believe that spawning can work, it just need tweaking.
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Ilushia
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Post subject: Tyranid v7.1 Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 9:43 pm |
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I actually rather like the spawning as-is. My only complaint is that the cheapest unit you can use to screen Hive Tyrants is Brood (3) and they all go up from there... Meaning it's unlikely a Hive Tyrant is going to be able to spawn more then one a turn, if they're lucky. And enemies can kill more then 1 per turn fairly easily, especially with Macro Weapons since they don't have Reinforced Armor until you get up to Heirodules at Brood (6). It isn't that spawning is broken, IMHO, it's that the AV nids get hung out to dry because they can't spawn stuff back fast enough of the right type to save themselves. I'd pick Tyranid Warriors every time, even though they're only bringing back D3 no-armor-save units, because it still requires the enemy to chew through more of them to get to me (since I can start the game with more) and if the enemy is stupid enough to leave me outside 30cm and I drop a spore, I'm getting back 3d3 bases.
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nealhunt
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Post subject: Tyranid v7.1 Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 11:12 pm |
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I was being hyperbolic with that statement. Sorry for the confusion.
Ilushia: If the nids are facing MW attacks, they have nothing to fear. MW hits can be allocated to any target, not just vehicles. It's easy enough to throw a gaunt on the sword. Only AT fire can specifically target the Tyrant and screening AVs and they are generally quite tough v AT fire.
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Eric.R.
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Post subject: Tyranid v7.1 Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 12:23 am |
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Whn and why did the Zoanthrope lose 'Reinforced Armour' & 'Walker'? Aswell, as Carnifex and Biovore losing 'Reinforced Armour'.
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Ilushia
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Post subject: Tyranid v7.1 Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 12:45 am |
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| Quote (Eric.R. @ 24 May 2006 (00:23)) | | Whn and why did the Zoanthrope lose 'Reinforced Armour' & 'Walker'? ?Aswell, as Carnifex and Biovore losing 'Reinforced Armour'. |
They lost the Reinforced Armor a while ago. Before v6.22 (the earliest I have other then v3 which is horribly outdated). I think the idea was that instead of 4+ RA they have 3+ basic armor saves. It makes them mildly weaker against normal weapons. And much more vulnerable to MW. Which I think was the idea, most MW weapons will simply kill a Carnifex fairly easily.
And to Neal: Actually I do understand that. But when you think about it, a Hive Tyrant and say 4 Carnifexes is gonna run you 240 points. It's not hard to pound that unit enough times to reduce the Carnifexes way down. Yes, you can slip in some non-AV creatures to soak up MW hits, but this still doesn't prevent AT hits from killing your synapse and carnifexes. If the enemy averages just 1 carnifex kill per turn, then they're coming out ahead in terms of regeneration on the unit (which they probably should). I do like the idea that the army 'devolves' into lower-creatures as the game goes on. I just wish they were a little more effective at shielding some of the big nasties in the army from the enemy.
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Eric.R.
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Post subject: Tyranid v7.1 Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 4:00 am |
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| Quote (Ilushia @ 23 May 2006 (19:45)) | | Quote (Eric.R. @ 24 May 2006 (00:23)) | | Whn and why did the Zoanthrope lose 'Reinforced Armour' & 'Walker'? ?Aswell, as Carnifex and Biovore losing 'Reinforced Armour'. |
They lost the Reinforced Armor a while ago. Before v6.22 (the earliest I have other then v3 which is horribly outdated). |
Ah, must have missed that as I have not used Zoanthropes in while (since about the v6 days).
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Jaldon
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Post subject: Tyranid v7.1 Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 6:51 am |
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The early playtests of the presented spawning system, and I do admit early (just a handfull of games), found the Nid army slowly devolving into a mass of Lesser Brood Creatures backed up by a few AV/WE.
This occurred because the Nid players were trying to keep their numbers up, and it was far easier to do that by spawning back Lesser Brood Creatures over the more expensive AVs.
In the first game or two the Nids were frustrated to watch their expensive AVs drop face down, and then cost too much to bring back. Then they started to change their tactics, like using cover to close and reduce enemy firepower, so that their AVs would last into the later turns.
As for the math of spawning, I am fully aware of these numbers, just as I am also fully aware of just how muich firepower has to be brought to bear to take out AVs with armor 3+ and Reinforced Armor 4+. Basically you must take into account the "Average To Hit" value vs AV targets (Which on average is lower then those needed vs INF/LV), then how many hits are then needed to eliminate just one AV(RA 4+ being four hits), and then compare that with the spawning value needed to return that same AV to play.
10xLeman Russ Tanks will score 8.3 AT hits, and that is only enough to take down TWO units with RA 4+.
Thanks All...................
Jaldon 
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nealhunt
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Post subject: Tyranid v7.1 Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 5:51 pm |
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| Quote (Ilushia @ 24 May 2006 (00:45)) | | And to Neal: Actually I do understand that. But when you think about it, a Hive Tyrant and say 4 Carnifexes is gonna run you 240 points. It's not hard to pound that unit enough times to reduce the Carnifexes way down. Yes, you can slip in some non-AV creatures to soak up MW hits, but this still doesn't prevent AT hits from killing your synapse and carnifexes. If the enemy averages just 1 carnifex kill per turn, then they're coming out ahead in terms of regeneration on the unit (which they probably should). I do like the idea that the army 'devolves' into lower-creatures as the game goes on. I just wish they were a little more effective at shielding some of the big nasties in the army from the enemy. |
That's only a 240 point AV formation. It should be relatively fragile. Compare it to other AV formations and you will find that it is actually much tougher than most (as it should be in trade for the firepower most AVs carry).
It's also not a very good formation composition. Bump it up to 6 Fexes (still only ~300 point formation) and the gap between the Tyrant/Fexes and AV formations from other armies grows further. Unless you get 5 or more AT hits in a single volley, you won't even reach the Tyrant. To have a decent chance of killing the Tyrant you would need something on the order of 2 volleys of 5/4 hits or a single volley of ~10 hits. Multiple volleys with lower numbers per volley will obviously require significantly more shots to be able to have a chance at killing the Tyrant.
Any 300 point formation in the game is pretty much gutted with that level of firepower, especially AVs, while the Nids would still have ~50% chance of being damagec but still combat effective.
That's just with a straight comparison of resistance to AT fire. Throw in the Fearless ability, which eliminates a prime way to take out AVs in most armies, and it adds another factor ro how much tougher the Nids are.
And that still hasn't factored in Spawning.
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