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[I]Personal Observations about the Tyranid List.
Stone-Foxx	Post subject: [I]Personal Observations about the Tyranid List. Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 7:07 am
Brood Brother Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 6:28 am Posts: 13	Hello,...yes, again. Tneva82, I do think the Tyranid WE are underpriced across the board for what they can do, as well as how many you can take. Most armies have a restriction of 1/3rd the points of the army as Titans, but Tyranids can have twice as many points in Bio-Titans. While they may not have as much shooting ability as other titans, they don't pay for it either. As far as other titans have Void Shields, Power Fields, or (in my Eldar's case) Holo Fields; you have Regenration. In many ways this is superior to all the other 'specialties' of Titans. Imperial, Ork, & Eldar titans all pay a premium of points for their big, bad titans. And they are worth it. I think the Regeneration rules allowing them to roll a d6 per starting DC a bit much. I suggested that a d6 per DC taken might be more in line. I also suggested (in a round about way) that if it isn't changed that they are worth more points (much more). Not necessarily up to the point cost of the Warlord for a Dominatrix, but a decent increase. Basically, I think either a change to the Regeneration rule or a point increase to the units that get it (as is) is in order. I also said that this is a much more minor problem than the Unstoppable rule. You said you considered the Dominatrix as the ??Tyranid?s biggest, baddest War Engine?? You also sought to compare them to the Warlord Titan (which would the be equivalent Imperial biggest, baddest War Machine). They both definitely have their advantages and disadvantages. Warlord Titan: 850 points; 15cm Speed; 4+ Armor; 2+ CC; 3+ FF; Damage Capacity 8; 6 Void Shields, Fearless, Reinforced Armor, Thick Rear Armor, Walker. Massive Firepower (4 ? 45cm AP5+/AT3+, 4 ? 45cm AP4+/AT4+, & 1 ? 90cm MW2+ Titan Killer) Dominatrix: 500 points; 25cm Speed; 4+ Armor; 4+ CC; 4+ FF; Damage Capacity 8; Regenerate, Synapse Creature, Supreme Commander, Fearless, Reinforced Armor, Walker, Unstoppable (can?t be Suppressed or Broken, automatic +1 CR, never suffers modifiers for Initiative from Blast Markers). (Not so massive) Firepower (1 ? 30cm AP4+/AT4+/AA4+, 1 ? Flame Template MW5+ Ignore Cover) & Melee-Power (+2 Titan Killer d3) It?s obvious that these don?t compare in many ways. The Warlord is much better shooting, while the Dominatrix is better in melee. The Warlord does take a whopping 14 hits to remove in a single turn, but every shot that gets past the Void Shields is permanent, while the Dominatrix takes 8 hits in a single turn, but over the course of the game will take many more due to the ability to Regenerate 1 or 2 per turn. The Warlord Titan suffers from Blast Markers and all of the associated problems thereof, while the Dominatrix does not. The Dominatrix is almost twice as fast as the Warlord, and with worse weapons to shoot with, really has no reason not to march right up to the enemy. The Dominatrix is also a Supreme Commander, putting it in the toughest unit you have available; something only Orks can also claim (that I'm aware of). The Dominatrix gets all of that for slightly over half the cost of the Warlord?yep, I think it?s under priced! Now for the kicker?(and I hate to give this tactic away to those who haven?t already though of it) only Tyranid War Engines can be ?screened?!!! For 50 points less than the price of the Warlord, the Dominatrix can create a Swarm containing 3 Hierodules; each with 6 Damage Capacity; each with Regeneration, and each can typically be Spawned back in a single turn by the Dominatrix!!! YES, I CALL THAT #@$%^&*(* ? @##@#@$* RIDICULOUS!!! In summation, if you were able to kill a Dominatrix in 2 turns before Regenerate, congratulations to you. I guess there was a lot of firepower directed at it instead of elsewhere?I guess if the guy using it was more than 100cm (40? ? a march move and an assault move) away from your units and couldn?t get in into melee to get some use out of it?well, that?s his problem. The other Titans might be tougher on the front end of a fight (before they start taking damage and Blast Markers), but the Tyranids have it on the back end of a fight with Regeneration. All of the Tyranid War Engines have remained the same price from before they got Regeneration. I?m saying either lessen (not completely remove, mind you, but ?lessen?) the power of Regeneration, or increase their point cost. Anyone who tells me they aren?t under priced has been smoking something?and at least should pass it over! In any point limit of a game, Tyranids can put more War Engines (twice the point value) on the table, and they can put DC 6 & 8 War Engines on the table for each choice!! StoneFoxx _________________ It is not enough that Tyranids must succeed, all others must fail. - The Hive Mind
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Stone-Foxx

Post subject: [I]Personal Observations about the Tyranid List. Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 7:56 am

Brood Brother Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 6:28 am Posts: 13

Hena, First, thanks for being somewhat open minded about my suggestions. As far as the Initiative value of Tyranids and if they should suffer from Blast Markers, I disagree. Blast Markers '...are a vital part of Epic so don't overlook their improtance...' (That's straight from the rulebook.)?Blast Markers represent more than the psychological effects of being shot at, although that is the main reason given for their use. Blast Markers also represent a Formation's inability to advance on the enemy without becoming vulnerable. If a machine gunner has a hallway covered, whether enemies attempt to run up the hallway, or dive into side rooms, their advance is going to be stopped. How about a rule that says Tyranids ignore Blast Markers but take an additional casualty without saves? This would be just as bug-like. They have no though to their own safety, so they become casualties for not taking cover while their brethren advance... I know that's a bit strange, but it's just as viable as your 'impression' of how it should work. ?...just playing the Devils Advocate there... Brood Creatures can be best described as almost mindless drones whom the Hive Mind gives some direction to, while at the same time letting that same creatures instinctive behavior do the rest. In effect the Hive Mind only tells the Brood Creatures where to go and how fast to get there and leaves the detailed work of fighting to the Brood Creatures instinctive behavior...[QUOTE] This is directly from the army list. It paints a picture where the hive mind gives a command and the tyranids 'instinctively' carry it out. Even Tyranids have some 'instinctive' level of self preservation. When left to their instincts, they do become pinned & fall back in 40k. I'd submits that tyranids will instinctively also avoid mindless death unless forcefully and constantly driven to it by the hive mind. If the hive mind tells the tyranids to go over there, and there is a hole in the ground, I see them as instinctively going around it. By the same token, if an area of the battlefield is being blasted with weapons fire, I see them as instinctively going around that as well. I think that the Tyranids should suffer the effects of Blast Markers when taking Initiative tests. Where it might represent another armies unwillingness psychologically to advance on the enemy, I think it would represent a Swarms instinctive behavior for self preservation to 'take the long way around' the bad parts of the battleground (i.e. their delay in taking action instead of their unwillingness to take action). And to those who say '...missing an activation hurts...' and '...trying to retain is a problem...' I say 'welcome to the game everyone else has to play!' Missing an activation hurts every army, and trying to retain with units that have Blast Markers is a 'problem' for every army. To those who say Tyranids '...do not hesitate...' and that they will '...sacrifice themselves without hesitation...', I say 'Maybe there should be some downside to such a mindless tactic?' If you are charging down the barrel of a gun, it doesn't matter how mindless you are, you're going to get killed. The benefit that they can almost always do even stupid actions should be balanced with the physical repercussions of such stupid actions. Me, I'd rather see the -1 modifier to Initiative Tests from Blast Markers...but that's just me wanting to mix some bad with all of the good. Having said that, and having pointed out a bug (pun intended) in the Tyranid List in the previous post, maybe what you really need is people (like me & Chroma) to think of ways to abuse the list. There seem to be many... StoneFoxx, Still striving for a fair and fun Tyranid List... _________________ It is not enough that Tyranids must succeed, all others must fail. - The Hive Mind

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Stone-Foxx	Post subject: [I]Personal Observations about the Tyranid List. Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 8:28 am
Brood Brother Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 6:28 am Posts: 13	Hena, 'At maximum you can get 3 bio titans from Independent section...' Where is this limit? I only see a limit of 1/3rd the armies points...? I don't see a limit of the Dominatrix other than 1/3rd the armies points as well...? Am I missing something?? 'The hierodules have 3 DC each, not 6...' Yep, I was looking at the number behind the 'Brood' listing...sorry about that. 'And I failed to regenerate any wounds...' Well, that's the breaks...like Marshalling to regain Void Shields and only rolling a 1. 'And notice that they can fire when marshaling (main asset) which spawning prevents (as in prevents engage)...' I noticed that. You can move or shoot though. I've had my opponent run behind a building several times when I'm battering away at the Bio-Titan. I couldn't get to him, while he Regenerated 2/3rd of the damage he took. That's the breaks. '...dominatrix and 2 hierodules...[is] the most expensive formation around...' That's 700 points...150 points less than a Warlord titan, and more survivable for the Dominatrix (adding in effect 6 Regenerating 'Void Shields'. ...and why stop at 2 Hierodules...? It's extra protection for the Dominatrix, and lots more punch in melee. As far as spawning them back, you at least have the options, a benefit nobody else has, and a pretty powerful option as well. Plus the Dominatrix doesn't have to be the one to spawn them, leave that to a Hive node and some Myecetic Spores. Have it march off to join the Dominatrix that used its second move to assault enemy formations, or another unit that isn't getting the attention the Dominatrix is getting... It's perfectly legal to field 3 Dominatrixes with 6 Heirodules and 23 Raveners each in a 5000 point army (a point value we use around hear fairly often). That's 26 Damage Capacity to get rid of before assault, and it will murder anything it gets its hands on in melee, and what's to stop it marching forward turn after turn (with the ability to re-roll the 2+ Initiative Test each turn for each Swarm) until it does get to assault??? The problem is much larger than you seem to think it is... Do you think that would be a fair army to face at a tournament? Do you think it would be 'fun' or 'fair' for the opponent? Chroma showed how this list can be taken to the opposite extreme with just as much of a gross abuse of the list... You guys seem to be sticking your fingers in your ears and refusing to listen to anything that upsets the preconcieved notions of how the army list works, and it's really getting frustrating. Needless to say, if things don't change, I might have to 'counts as' my entire Eldar army as Tyranids and make some 'competitive' armies to take to tournaments... 'Wins by army abuse'...has a ring to it doesn't it??? StoneFoxx, If you can't beat them, join them... _________________ It is not enough that Tyranids must succeed, all others must fail. - The Hive Mind
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Stone-Foxx	Post subject: [I]Personal Observations about the Tyranid List. Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 8:48 am
Brood Brother Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 6:28 am Posts: 13	Hena, '...failed activation hurts Nids much more than almost anything else in the game. Most nids are not able to shoot. Almost everyone else can...' You seem to be assuming a lot right there...I've have plenty of units that don't have any shooting, or shooting to 30cm or less. In fact well over half of my units have shooting of 30cm of less, or no shooting at all. They are just as 'useless' when they miss an activation. I really think you should look at that a bit harder...or maybe you only think Dark Reapers and Devastator Squads miss activations??? '...And they can marshal and nids can't spawn...' You know, I think we have been playing that wrong. We've been allowing Tyranid Swarms to Spawn with the hold action if they choose to 'Regroup'. Thinking about it (and re-reading it) now, I think that it should be changed to 'Regrouping' (not 'Rallying'), so that Tyranids can Spawn then...I see that as extremely fair for the trade of not having to be terrified of the Swarm for a turn. '...spawning means losing a round of assault...' Marshalling means missing a round of assaults for me as well. Many (maybe a 3rd) of my units have nothing outside of assault at all. That's the game. We have to play it...maybe you could try your luck with it as well? '...how without completely destroying the unstoppable feel...' Ignoring the Broken and Supressed effects of Blast Markers as I suggested is 'destroying the feel' of Unstoppable...That a huge frickin' advantage!! '...Please note that we do take the lost damage in assault like everyone else...' Ignoring Blast Markers always gives you a +1 modifier to avoid that result. The size of the Swarms that can (and usually are) taken insures that most of the time you'll get the +1 modifier to that to avoid the 'penalty', and finally, a single shot (whether it damages or not...or even could damage for that matter) insures you another +1 modifier to avoid that. Even if it isn't avoided, that reduces the effects of a game-wide (tyranids excepted) rule. I'm really trying to stay sane, but you guys are only looking at this problem from one side of the table... StoneFoxx, ...already working out my own 'competitive' 'counts as' army list that will be 'fun and fair' for my opponent to enjoy getting kicked around by... _________________ It is not enough that Tyranids must succeed, all others must fail. - The Hive Mind
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tneva82

Post subject: [I]Personal Observations about the Tyranid List. Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 9:48 am

Brood Brother Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 12:17 pm Posts: 606

[quote="Stone-Foxx,22 Mar. 2006 (06:07)"][/quote] Tneva82, I do think the Tyranid WE are underpriced across the board for what they can do, as well as how many you can take. Most armies have a restriction of 1/3rd the points of the army as Titans, but Tyranids can have twice as many points in Bio-Titans. What precicely is so underpriced in them? They have no serious guns to speak off, are extremely vulnerable and are at their best in CC which is worst kind of assault there is...Oh and dominatrix takes synapse points and thus reduce activations... While they may not have as much shooting ability as other titans, they don't pay for it either. As far as other titans have Void Shields, Power Fields, or (in my Eldar's case) Holo Fields; you have Regenration.

Regeneration that is inferior and generally heals 1-2 at most. Eldar holofield is vastly superior and even ork/Imperial protection is superior.

Imperial, Ork, & Eldar titans all pay a premium of points for their big, bad titans.

Something to do with their superior resilience to fire and superior capability to cause damage no doubt...

It?s obvious that these don?t compare in many ways. The Warlord is much better shooting, while the Dominatrix is better in melee.

And CC ability is much inferior to shooting. For one you can often use CC in 1-2 turns in game. Shooting 3-4. Secondly to get most of dominatrix CC ability you need to get it into contact with something tough. But you know opponent might just head elsewhere...

but over the course of the game will take many more due to the ability to Regenerate 1 or 2 per turn.

But in reality will get chance to regenerate maybe once. Or otherwise enemy is lacking in ability to deal with tough titans and just avoids them. But if it has firepower to deal with bigger titans then 1 round of regeneration will be much more likely. 1-2 DC returned. Wopedoo.

The Dominatrix is also a Supreme Commander, putting it in the toughest unit you have available;

Also paints big SHOOT ME target top of it. Especially as since it's synapse it's taking points out of needed synapses and thus reduce activation count and thus by killing it you already low amount of activations.

yep, I think it?s under priced!

Funny thing. Inferior abilities should generally be cheaper.

I guess if the guy using it was more than 100cm (40? ? a march move and an assault move) away from your units and couldn?t get in into melee to get some use out of it?well, that?s his problem.

Actually board was pretty narrow. But here's how I did it. Turn 1: I shoot it bad. It moves forward. Turn 2: Since I easily win SR I shoot it stone dead. BANG! Before tyranids get even to move...

ll of the Tyranid War Engines have remained the same price from before they got Regeneration.

Concidering their abilities well justified.

Anyone who tells me they aren?t under priced has been smoking something?and at least should pass it over!

What are YOU smoking when you claim inferior abilities shouldn't mean lower price?