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[I]Personal Observations about the Tyranid List.
Stone-Foxx	Post subject: [I]Personal Observations about the Tyranid List. Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 8:27 am
Brood Brother Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 6:28 am Posts: 13	First off, let me say right from the start, I'm not a veteran player. I have been playing for a little while against many of the armies available, and I feel I can play decently with my own army (Eldar) against most other armies. Within the last 2 months, I've had the displeasure of playing againt Tyranids repeatedly. Some of the earlier problems was using the old Tranid list on the Specialist Games site. I'd suggest you guys should really try to make sure that the list there is updated as you refine the list. After several games against the Tyranids, I have to say that they are the least fun army to play against. Before it is asked, yes I have lost every game against them. I don't think that this is the reason that I find them so unenjoyable to play against. There are other armies that I've played against and lost every game to that I didn't feel were 'broken' or did not have fun playing against. Some of the problems I see with the Tyranid list are the stats of some of the units within the list. I know this is a work in progress, but a single point in this game can have a big impact and need to be closely looked at. Many units have stats that seem to be right on the money. Other just seem a bit off kilter. I'll give an example of one of them. Raveners have a Close Combat value of 4+, which is the same as a Carnifex. Other 'lesser' units have a 5+. Although the Ravener may be better in Close Combat than some of these 'lesser' creatures, I don't feel it is at the 4+ range...the extra point is a huge difference. This problem is typical of a few other units, but this serves as an example. The main problem with the list to me is the 'Unstoppable' rule. The ability to totally ignore Blast Markers (one of the most basic concepts and rules of the Epic game) is a huge advantage. Much too huge! The 'Unstoppable' rules breaks such a basic rule that it requires other rules just to handle the problems that arise from including this rule (i.e. the Victory Condition rules). The benefit of never having to worry about breaking, never having to consider being supressed, and always having an automatic +1 to Combat Resolution should be paid for by every single unit that receives these abilities, but there seems to be nothing extra in the cost to account for this over similar units in other list (units with similar stats). This rule really REALLY needs to be examined. I think something more along the lines of the Space Marine rule is in order. I understand that you are trying to get the 'feel' of the Tyranids, but background is never justification for rules that are broken. The situation that illustrated the problems inherent with this rule happened in the last game. A unit of Vypers without Blast Markers was fired on by the Tyranid player. Nothing was damaged by this shooting, but the unit received a Blast Marker. The Tyranid player retained the Initiative and assaulted the Vypers with a unit of Genestealers. The Vypers (Skimmers) were only able to cause a single casualty, and the Genestealers (having no Firefight value) weren't even able to touch the Vypers, yet received a +2 Combat Resolution for just being there due to the Unstoppable rule. With him outnumbering me, he had a total modifer of +3. I lost the Assault, and most of the formation to enemy units that couldn't even affect it that cost 60 points less! I've had opponents do some tricky things to turn a game against me, but I usually have to admire their cleverness. Not this particular trick. Another thing with the rules that I would urge you to reconsider would be the Regeneration rule for War Engines. A War Engine being able to roll a d6 for each point of starting Damage Capacity is a bit harsh. I agree with the idea of the rule, and how it fits into the 'theme' of the Tyranids, but I'd urge that the War Engine only be allowed to roll a d6 for each point of Damage Capacity that it has lost. Although I had dedicated Titan hunting formations in the form of Super-Heavy Grav Tanks, I found it hard enough to put any points against it's Damage Capacity. Then after using those formations to rack up a total of 4 points of damage capacity, it Regenerates 3 of them with its 8 rolls. I understand that it was some good rolling, but this was disheartening to say the least. Rolling 4 dice and seeing 1 or 2 points regenerate would have been enough. I'd urge you to play against the Tyranids with some players who aren't trying to make it work fairly; players who are going to try to make it an overwhelming force to play against. See if you have fun. See if you think the army list is 'fine'. I intend to ask for help from other veteran player against the Tyranids and will be making major modifications to my list, and probably be adopting a mindset that isn't so friendly or fun to play against. I'd rather not, but until the list is fixed, I'd rather do that then play a game against an army that isn't fun to play against. I know this is coming off pretty harsh, but I want you to see it from the 'other side of the fence'. I think you have a generally good idea, but some bad implimentation of it. I'd rather see a balanced, fun Tyranid army list to play against then to have to change the basic premise of the game (i.e. just be competitive - not fun) to play against it. StoneFoxx ...waiting to hear just how 'wrong' I am. _________________ It is not enough that Tyranids must succeed, all others must fail. - The Hive Mind
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KiLLerLooP	Post subject: [I]Personal Observations about the Tyranid List. Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 10:09 am
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2003 10:25 am Posts: 134 Location: Germany	Although being a Nid-player myself, I too have the impression that the nids are a bit too powerful. I like the idea of 'unstoppable' but never receiving blast markers is very, if not too tough. As Stone-Foxx already mentioned: tyras can never be broken, are always better in assaults, don't receive -1 when retaining ... so they are far superior compared to other armies. When having a look on the batreps so far most games are won by tyras and I have the impression that the only two armies they have to fear are necrons or tau. My mate and I have stopped playing tyranids and use our other armies till the list becomes a bit more attractive to play against. Don't get me wrong: The list looks nice and I really appreciate your work, but the list doesn't seem to be balanced yet. Perhaps they need some real disadvantages, except from lacking long range firepower and flyers, that even out the 'unstoppable' rule? _________________ Webmaster of www.epic-battles.de -------------------------- Epic Section on my HP
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KiLLerLooP	Post subject: [I]Personal Observations about the Tyranid List. Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 11:11 am
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2003 10:25 am Posts: 134 Location: Germany	Hena, sorry I mixed that up! Sure I meant the normal -1 modifier on initiative for having BMs. Should re-read my posts more thoroughly. I don't have specific suggestions on how to downgrade Nids. I have thought about that alot but can't think of a good solution. I'd tend to make the nid units a bit more expensive point wise, but I like the hordelike effect of the army by having those sheer number of units which is only possible with having lots of cheap troops. Perhaps you could limit the size of swarms? E.g. a swarm could consist of 10 models. This way you'd end up having more swarms and need more synapse. This way the swarm becomes more vulnerable in assaults and the synapse creature(s) are easier to hit as you can't shield them with enough troops from all sides. Sorry, I don't have better ideas atm but I am not good at designing game mechanics, but perhaps anybody else here can help out and has better ideas!? Just a question towards the other nid players here: Do you enjoy the actual list? Do your opponents enjoy playing against you? Perhaps its just Stone-Foxx, my mate and me who have the feeling of nids beeing a nightmare to play against ...? _________________ Webmaster of www.epic-battles.de -------------------------- Epic Section on my HP
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Chroma

Post subject: [I]Personal Observations about the Tyranid List. Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 2:25 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm Posts: 9684 Location: Montréal, QC, Canada

Stone-Foxx, you mention this on the Specialist boards: Oddly (for a Tyranid army) there are almost no Guants of any description. And it's got me a bit confused as at *least* 25% of the Tyranid army has to be made up of Common creatures like Termagants and such. Would it be possible for you to post the point values and actual army lists your Tyranid opponents are using?   I've found the initial games against Tyranids can be really tough as one has to completely change the way one plays, but once you figure that out, it's tough, but not impossible to beat the Bugs.  Your approach should almost be the opposite of fighting other armies: concentrate fire on destroying a single brood/formation at a time, instead of trying to suppress/blast marker various units. I hope you can provide us with some more info! _________________ "EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

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asaura	Post subject: [I]Personal Observations about the Tyranid List. Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 8:23 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2003 11:34 am Posts: 481	Quote (Chroma @ 20 Mar. 2006 (13:25)) I've found the initial games against Tyranids can be really tough as one has to completely change the way one plays, but once you figure that out, it's tough, but not impossible to beat the Bugs. ?Your approach should almost be the opposite of fighting other armies: concentrate fire on destroying a single brood/formation at a time, instead of trying to suppress/blast marker various units. I've reached the same conclusions, as witnessed in the few reports posted by Hena. It takes some learning.
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Stone-Foxx

Post subject: [I]Personal Observations about the Tyranid List. Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 8:50 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 6:28 am Posts: 13

Changing the unstoppable is very hard as it was done by JJ and as far as I know, he don't want it to change. I was suggesting to remove it from individual section (as far as I remember that was also spawned by your other thread) but that was no-no. IMO it would have been better to give them  ATKNF  instead of unstoppable *shrug*. JJ (god love him), just like anyone else, can be wrong. I don't know how much JJ has played against Tyranids, but I think he might change his mind when faced by a 'competitive' player using the list. I would suggest that this be re-evaluated. The impact of this single rule is huge. It affects all assaults, weapon fire (though supression), Action rolls, etc. It affects almost every aspect of the game. It's a base rule of the game, and shouldn't be discarded with such a sweeping rule; at least not unless every unit that gets it pays a premium of points for it. But note that the list (6.22) has got some fixes. Lesser node is raised to 50 points.

Maybe I'm not getting the right link, but the list I found labled 6.2.2 lower on this list of threads still shows this as being 30 points. It is different than the 6.1 list I have as reference, but maybe I still have the wrong one?
Stone-Foxx. Would you be interested in making some batreps (with a details on swarms in the beginning) to see what your opponent does? This way it is more easier to come up with specific downgrade suggestions. I would like to know if others play similar way as I do or completely differently.
I'd be happy to do this with future games against Tyranids. I'm not sure I'd be able to get an accurate army list, but I'll do the best I can. Maybe if you told me how you play using the list, I could give you a better idea if others use it in the spirit you envision.
And it's got me a bit confused as at *least* 25% of the Tyranid army has to be made up of Common creatures like Termagants and such.
Well, that's one of the problems with the list in my oppinion. Raveners should be considered 'Uncommon Brood Creatures'. If you look at their stats, they are an 'elite' choice compared to the other 'Common' Brood Creatures. The players I play against don't typically use any Guants (Gargoyles, Termagants, & Hormagaunts). I think they see these as just too 'weak' compared to the Ravener for the cost of a few more points. If you were to play more 'competitively' (i.e. out to win) what would you use?
...it's tough, but not impossible to beat the Bugs...concentrate fire on destroying a single brood/formation at a time, instead of trying to suppress/blast marker various units.
This is something that I endeavor to do. I never said its impossible to beat (although I haven't done it yet); I said its not a fun game against them. As far as concentrating fire, that is what I try to do, but with the small size of the average Eldar formation accompanied by the short range of their weapons (hence the need to move away after shooting) means it typically takes my whole army to reduce a Swarm, let alone kill it needing 5s & 6s to hit it. That's exactly why Blast Markers are so important. Imagine playing any other army and removing the Blast Markers from them...its not a fair direct comparison, but it illustrates the point. I don't think you'd have much 'fun' getting beaten repeatedly due to that rule, unless you are masochistic.
Any suggestions in how to downgrade nids? Vague handwaving does not help. I am most interested in specific suggestions.
I though I was pretty specific, but I can be more so. I've downloaded (what I believe to be) the most current army list. I'll go through it and try to make suggestions, as well as point out the parts I do think are currently 'right'.
First off, the Special Rules. I already stated that I totally and completely disagree with the Unstoppable rule. I do see the idea behind it, and I agree with the idea of this rule, just not the execution. I think some ideas on how you could change it would be to replace it with a Space Marine rule, possibly with a higher multiplier (say maybe 3 times the normal blast markers). Another idea (which I don't like as much) would be to allow them to ignore the effects of being supressed or broken by Blast Markers. That way, they'd not get any 'free' bonuses in assaults, would still suffer the -1 Action Test modifer, etc.
I also said I don't like the Regeneration rule. If I put a single wound on a Titan, it's more than likely to Regenerate that wound with 8 rolls. Consider facing a Warlord Titan with this rule...it would be a nightmare, and would definitely cost more points because of it. Tyranid Titans already get to ignore Blast Markers at a very cheap cost; this is icing on the cake. Consider the suggestion of only rolling a d6 for each point of Damage Capacity taken.
The Dominatrix looks a bit better with the toned down version in the newer list, but is still a bargain for 500 points. As a side note, I don't really like the Template range scattered so thickly throught the list...the amount of units that can get hit with a single weapon shot is terrifying. Maybe a 20cm range would be more appropriate, or 20cm counting as a Barrage weapon...? Again, consider facing this weapon with one of your own Swarms at close range. It could easily blanket every unit in the Swarm...that's a bit much I think.
The Harradin looks better in the new list, but is still a bargain. The Ignore Cover rule also scattered so thickly through the list is a little annoying, but I can at least understand that one.
The other units in the Synapse Creature portion appear to be the same. I did  notice the Hive Tyrant's extra attacks has been reduced by 1. Generally, I don't have too many problems with the Synapse Creatures, although I feel the War Engines are a bargain (too much so) for the rules they have and the points they cost.
Lictors, Heirophants, & Hydraphants seem almost the same, and I don't have a problem with the minor changes. The point cost for DC6 & 8 War Engines is a bargain. I'd like to see their cost brough in line with their abilities. The Genestealers seems to have gained an extra 5cm of movment and an addition melee attack for free. The movment coupled with the Infiltrator rule for free is a bit much. This unit was good enough for as it was for 25 points. Either it should be changed back or cost more points. I am suprised to see the Expactorator disappear completely.
The uncommon creatures are mostly unchanged. I'm not sure why the Malefactor deserves 2 extra MacroWeapon attacks in melee for free... I noticed the Biovore is reduced in cost. I agree with this, but I'd like to see its weapon changed to include Indirect (possibly with a range reduction to 30cm, so it would double to 60cm). Regenerating DC 3 War Engines for 100 points is rediculous to me, especially when they can be brought back after the headache of killing them by an opponent using the Spawn Action! Sometimes it really doesn't appear that you guys consider these things. Imagine respawned Super-Heavy tanks in an IG army. Not sure why the Exocrine deserves an extra MW melee attack for free, but whatever.
As far as the common creatures, I did notice that the point values changed. I think they are better, but I still firmly think the Ravener should be an Uncommon unit. Maybe it's just me, but I'm sick of facing Tyranids with only Ravener and not a single Gaunt... I also noticed the increased cost to bring one back with a Spawn action. I think that was necessary, and I'm glad to see it. If they were moved to the Uncommon area, reduced back to 20 points, and left as a Brood (2), I'd be happy. The rest of the common beasties seem unchanged except for the point cost, but I agree with the reduction for Termagants.
All in all, most of the units are okay for what they do, but the War Engines are undercosted across the board. The Unstoppable rule is what breaks this army down. It really needs to be changed!! If that was the only change, this list could be fun to play against. ...a little annoying consider the undercosted War Engines, but still enjoyable.
StoneFoxx