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I have really gotten into LEgions Imperialis

 Post subject: I have really gotten into LEgions Imperialis
PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2024 5:29 am 
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The game system like most GW/Warhammer games needs time to learn the rules, has no set index for quick rules referal, many rules are covered throughout the book over a number of pages and you need to keep jumping from onwe page to another - a lot. Okay that was pretty much the down side.

Well the rest of the things you need to understand is GW want to sell stuff, so many of the good usefull minis are mixed with not so useful unit types, and you do not get as many as you want, so then need to buy another box. Theey offer larger army boxes, but the good units are again not in a good enough supply in them, and GW will not release just a box of missile launcher infantry, or a box of just Leviathan dreadnoughts with a choice of weapons, you get half in the yuk weapon option and half in the I want that weapon option.I myself had to turn to a local 3D printer and source some STLs in order to try and save money and get the missile launchers I needed for the army. I am now trying to source other priority units that do not come in a mixed support or heavy vehicle packs.

But once you have a few formations built with exactly the units you want in them, you can start to have some real fun. The game has a core army contingent say Astartes or Auxilia or soon to be released, Mechanicum, and these must make 70% of the armies points total. The rules also require 1 formation per 1500 points. You many have a formatoin from an allied contingent say Auxilia titan, knight or mechanicum to support the astartes. One formation for each core formation, and these may be from an different contingent. Example 2 core formations of Astartes and an auxilia formation and a titan.

The core of the army might have an alpha legion formation and an emperor's children formation, but each can only use its own legions special rules, and can not share these with other formations not of their own legion. The allied contingent if it is astartes must be from only one legion. You can even mix and match loyalist and traitor legoin formations in the core army group as some companies chose to go against their primarchs choice. Unless you take a formatoin of renown which generally is either loyalist or traitor only. If you do this, then no loyalist legions if may be taken with a renown traitor formatoin and vice versa.

I found Legoin builder APP available to use on PC and mobile phones is easy to follow and allows you to save a printable PDFs of your army. Yiou can also save a quick tick damage box sheet to keep track of casualties and break points for the formations.

The game rules and turn sequence are simplistic, with some special actions that occur out of order incurring negative modifiers for their to hit rolls, etc. The list of special rules and weapon special rules is overwhelming, and they try to put them into 2 sectoins to make it easy to follow. However you will find that your rule book has a lot of post it notes on it with catch words on them to quickly find rules and unit stats.

As to unit and formation cards, they are a help, but with some units, the rules tell you that the Kratos has 2 x of the hull mounted weapon taken, but the card does not tell you it has 2 of the weapon.
then not mixing them up with old editions of the rules such ae Epic Armageddon, or with special rules that are similar for specific legions and so on, makes for you sometimes giving the enemy a better save or benefit.

Thankfully we have a few player who are rules gurus in my local monthly group, and I would recommend joining one as they can provide support, swap minis people have in excess, give you a base of opponents to play against and gain experience.

Locally GW has not supported the Austraian and NZ markets well when it comes to resupply of much needed box sets and units. I have fallen back on some 3rd party minis which are just different enough to avoid the IP Hammer of grandma wendy, and thankfullly are in pewter, or find some STLs which are decent and where I can find someone to print them off for me. However I just found a company who seems to have bought up a massive ammount of the stock I was looking for. Where Astartes infantry box sets have not been on the Australian warhammer online store for well over a year, I found 5 packs of them in this store. And they are at discount price - WOW. I went and made a wish list.

However the really bad thing is that with every gaming system out there you can not control the roll of the dice (unless you cheat and use loaded dice - this will get you banned, you have been warned). So on the weekend, my Alpha legoin army faced a raven guard army with 5 objectives on the table. 2 points for oyur own, 7 points for the enemies, 4 each for the 3 in the middle but if you hold 2 and one is the centre on it is now 8 points. I went for the objectives, using my armour and infantry in cover to try and clear the enemy off the table. He had twice as many heavy tanlks and ground based AA, as well as aircraft. I had more infantry, and more dedicated anti- armour units.

End of turn 1, I had lost 1/3 of my tanks, most of my Sicaran Arcus (aa tanks) and all my xyphons. but I had 17 points to my opponents 2. Turn 2, I had lost my remaining sicarans (twin Autocannon) and last arcus, the opponent had lost 2 aircraft with 2 remaining. I had killed of an entire infantry detachment, one of his quad launcher dets, and one of his hyperios squadrons and 4 orf his Kratos. I had 34 points to his 4.

Turn 3 and 4, we traded shots toe for toe and slowly whittled each of our opponents forces down. But on turn 4 he took my left flank object ive in the middle. I had a tactical det with commander (lost 2 bolters), anther tactical det (lost 4 bolters), 4 predators, 4 assault marines and 7 rhinos left on the table. He had a single kratos on 1 wound, 4 predators, a tactical detachment with 3 missile launchers in it, 3 hyperios tarantulas in the middle of some woods, 4 assault marines that took the left objective. Points were 64 to 12.

We decided to call it there.

The next game although my tactics were sound the enemy had an auxilia army, and he had a lot of demolisher weapon, ignores cover weapons (flamers, cyclone missiles on heavy sentinels, thudd guns and demolisher guns in malcadors and banebledes, etc). I ended up having my infantry slowly being chipped away in cover, my aricraft were wiped out on turn 1,with 5 of my 6 arcus tanks as well. My own kratos lasted 2 turns, and the rhino tanks which I used as a cover against his targeted shots against my arcuses meant he had to take his time wiping me out. However the dice gods abandoned me and when I had to roll for 4 saves at -1 AP, dropping my save to a 3+, I rolled really badly with nothing over a 2. The same can be said for my to hit rolls, with me rolling 8 dice for frag missiles (4+) and hititng only once. My oppomnent rolled a 6 and saved his butt.

The rest of the game went that way, and I ceded the fiield at the end of turn 2. I had 3 missile launchers in 1 tact det, a commander and 4 missile launchers in another det, 5 rhinos only left on the table. He outnumbered me 6 tanks, a SH tank, 2 aircraft, 3 hyperios, 3 detachments almost completely full of core troops, and a mostly intact velatarii squad and 2 commanders.

Oh that game was fun, but my I need to sacrifice more old Epic armageddon or plastic 40K loyalists to the dice gods next time.

Maybe make a tallarn table with lots of hills, some dense rubble areas some ruined buildings lots of smale buttes and mesas scattered and some brown grassy lands to around to block line of site and make it more thematic.

I have really found that the more WAAC people tend to choose 40K, or 30K heresy (32mm), so I have found those learning can start off and collect and learn without being disheartened, while those who want a more challenging time of it, can simply weaken their army or drop the points value they take.

Plus I love the painting of the minis. They come up so sexy. I am not with some place like imgur or similar as I have dropped all pay for photo sites, so can not upload pics to link on here.

but if you look on the legions imperialis NSW facebook page you will see some of my and fellow gamers armies. Out solar auxilia player (thousand sons allied) looks brilliant.

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6mm wargaming is just like 25mm wargaming with more units fitting on the same size table. Thus bigger games to get lost in and avoid the hassles of everyday living, and offerings for the dice gods.


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 Post subject: Re: I have really gotten into LEgions Imperialis
PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2025 12:57 pm 
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Interesting to read your comments Deb. I am very much of a mixed mind with Legions. On the one hand, I love that it has brought Epic scale back into the spotlight and we have this lovely range of new minis. On the other hand, it is possibly one of the most inaccessible games that I have ever played! Certainly the least accessible of all Epic editions (incredibly, including 1st edition) and I have played some tough games over the years. It feels like something of a missed opportunity to make a truly great game from this scale.

Firstly, having page-long profiles with different loadouts for a single unit is insane for an 8mm scale game. I would say the game is almost unplayable without the Army Builder App (a 3rd party addition!) in terms of looking up references, unless you live and breathe it. I was chatting to one of the developers of Armageddon a few months back and he was telling me that Jervis Johnson came up with the concept of a vs. armour and vs. infantry statline at the 11th hour, and it revolutionised the game and made the abstraction work so well at that scale. Why did the designers of this game ignore that previous work? It's like if someone nowadays made a car where you were having to amend fuel mixture as you drive or use a double-clutch when changing gear. It is a real head-scratcher.
Also, the objective system (as written) is broken to the point where I don't think it could have really been playtested, with almost every game being over by the (admittedly 2-3 hours long) first and second turns. Most communities now play with amended scoring or turn 2 scoring, but a game from a company like GW shouldn't need something like this - you've got to hit the basics.
The rules are also great wedges and blocks of texts, with an appallingly formatted and presented rulebook. I think it was probably to stop 'TFG' reading the rules upside down and doing something bonkers with the rules, but it's at the expense of making it read like your car insurance T&Cs. Will this game be used for tournaments? Very seldom, at least here in the UK it is nearly all 'narrative' events, which a softer (and perhaps more fun?) ruleset would have worked with.

There is definitely a good game in there, and the sight of hordes of tiny marines and tanks destroying each other is awesome, but you really have to put the work in to get there. I read a comment about it being like trying to enjoy a clamshell meal, you have to get through the shell and find the tasty part inside, and these days people just want to empty McDonalds down their throats :D I feel this is why an event we are trying to run is struggling to sell tickets. Other Legions groups (at least here in the UK) are struggling similarly. And I think now you probably have a lot of people buying the minis, because they are gorgeous and collectible (and actually reasonably priced, for GW) but not playing the game - they've tried it once or twice and been put off, which is a real shame.


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 Post subject: Re: I have really gotten into LEgions Imperialis
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2025 8:18 am 
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Actually we are running an annual event called CanCon with players running a 2400 point army with the 70% core force minimum rules. Maximum of 16 of any one unit type except for the core astartes bolters, mechanicum tech Thralls, oe auxilia tercio las rifle stands.

This is to stop people spamming the best of unit types or vehicles. So if you want to take deredeos for AA, max 16, Ogryns, max 16. Astartes missiles (either tactical upgrades or dedicated missile support) again 16, as these have range 20" and can remove infantry from buildings, and can even worry walker and tanks.

The tournament is for the MOnday only - 3rd day of the event, and for Australia where people have to travel and many decide to go elsewhere with their families to the beach, etc, for the eevnt organisers to get currently 21 people signing up with the last 3 places looking to be filled up quickly before next weeks tournament.

I am taking Solar auxilia with allied Alpha Legoin astartes. Some artillery, titan killer super heavies, lots of close combat troops, some thunderhawks, auxilia aircraft, lots of ignore cover weapons, and enough demlisher weapons to bring lots of buildings down. I think my army will have a hard time of it though. Some of the armies out there have Warmaster iconoclasts, Dire wolves, and other big nasties (using that new GW formatons that titans become objective scoring if they have cybernetica support detachments in 3" of them). and many more nasty combinations of armies.

I got my infantry and other forces from my friend (3D printed) and they have filled out the ranks of my armies and formations to brimmingly full. Lots of missile launcher marines, lots of Charonite Ogryns, Seculari, Assaults marines, Terminators, Twin AC Sicarans and Deredeos.

I want to later get a lot of Leviathan dreads, Kratos, Sicaran Arcus, Javelin Cyclone Missile launchers, Basilisks, Auxilia Heavy Sentinels.

Plus dice that do not start rolling badly half way through a game.

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 Post subject: Re: I have really gotten into LEgions Imperialis
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2025 3:26 pm 
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That is really good to hear Deb and glad you have managed to pad out the event and get a good number of attendees. Perhaps Australian wargamers have a bit more patience to play the game than those of us in the UK? ;)

I'll be interested to hear how the game functions in a competitive setting. The only ones I have played in have been 'soft' tournaments, where although your result goes into a table, there was an equal weighting for hobby stuff (miniature painting and modelling) and also gamesmanship. I managed to get 'top traitor' despite only winning one of three games, which will tell you! I think the restrictions placed on the army composition sound like a good idea, to stop the more egregious selections and spamming them. I keep thinking: this game was designed for me when I was a 20yr old student, playing a 4hr game on a school night while listening to the Smiths was fine. Almost a 'for us, not for them', in some ways it reminds me of some of the insanely complex settings and rules you would get printed out by our uni wargaming group on a dot-matrix printer in the late 90s. It doesn't feel like a game designed in 2023.

We're currently in the situation where we haven't been able to sell out an event which is taking place in few months time; this is in one of the UKs biggest wargaming locations, very reasonably priced ticket with all proceeds going to charity for a beloved White Dwarf editor (Paul Sawyer). Meanwhile, 50 miles away the Epic Armageddon tournaments sell out weeks in advance, for a game that hasn't been sold for 20 years. For me, that does not bode well.


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 Post subject: Re: I have really gotten into LEgions Imperialis
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2025 7:28 am 
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I suppose in Australia we have only a few GW gaming systems that have stuck after they are dropped (unsupported by GW), and since a lot of people have their old EA minis, they have been able (allowed to) to use their rebased old minis until they could get the newer minis. Plus everyone has been on the same learning curve, so the trend to build WAAC lists is not so feirce as it could be. Plus the TOs have found that beginners tend to want a chance to win a game now and then. Hence the formation limit of no duplicate formation types, and limits on the ammount of non core units. no more than 10 aircraft (total) with weapons.

Having a maximum of 16 of any one unit armed with a certain weapon type means they can be spread thinly or can only only kill off just a few of your nasty big guns or aircraft.

In this game you need to deal with certain threats and need to have them yourself or have a counter to them.

infantry in cover countered by ignores cover weapons.

artillery countered by your own artillery ot teleporting assault troops.

tanks and super heavy tanks counted by nice long range weapons with minimum -1 AP and must not be light or light AT.
Most tanks ot SH tanks can counter your opponents tanks, but aitcraft with missiles and lascannons also can do this.

Aircraft, especially transport aricraft, which can not normally he hit except on 6's unless you have sky fire weapons. These can be countered by ground based AA skyfire tanks, hyperios tarantulas. and also aircraft to shoot them down.

Some new units transports like termites allow for deepstrike into enemy territory but as with teleporting troops they run the risk of scattering where they will be destroyed.

Assault troops or assaulting walkers with really large CAF value, are the bane of most normal troops, and a lot of tanks, transport vehicles. Especially if they have rend weapons. these need to be killed off before they close, or countered with your own assault forces.

Titans are really powerful, but if your enemy has good rolls, they can get a lot of shields back and support each other against units that are hurting the other titan. Some of the weapons are a nightmare to face off against and they can deal with aircraft, troops in buildings (by destroying the building) weapons to keill off tanks SH tanks because of their massive AP modifier. Watchout for Warlord graviton ruinators, Vulcan mega-bolter arrays, Apocalypse missile launchers, paired lasblasters, Quake cannons, Oh and Psi titans with their heavy psi beam weapon.

Knights are a a pest, but have fewer weapons, and their invul shield is only to their front. they can be expensive as well. Get behind them with a weapon with an AP modifier, and they go down quick. Aircraft are good for this.

Overall a well balanced army will get you out of most trouble, but do not over extend yourself with some of this and some of that. You will have to specialize in a few areas, and hope the enemy does not have something you can not counter.

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