The base values for the Razorback are slightly lower here as I seem to have forgotten to apply the 'linked' modifier to its weapons until now. Sigh.

Note that applying the changes that affect it breaks the Rapier as a usable formation. I'm not sure how to fix this.

_________________
Net Epic Coordinator

Hi!

Could you go in to this a little bit more? I want to make sure I understand the issue, before suggesting a fix.

Thanks!

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules

Presuming you mean the Rapier. I'm only looking at model values in this post.

In the basic run, the Rapier has a value of 18. This comes from:
Light Artillery (value of 3) times Move of 10cm (value of 2) times Move type (value 1) (3*2*1) equals 6
CAF of -3 times 4 equals -12
Laser Destroyer: 1 shot (4) to 50cm (1) 4+ (1.5) & TSM-3 (4) equals (4*1*1.5*4) 24
Thus 6 -12 +24 = 18

Tweaking the direct-fire weapons adjusts the Rapier's weapon as:
Laser Destroyer: 1 shot (1) to 50cm (1) 4+ (1.5) TSM-3 (4) equals (1*1*1.5*4) 6
Thus model cost is 6 (move) -12 (CAF) +6 (weapon) for a net cost of zero. Broken.

Tweaking the CAF just makes it worse, looking at column F.
Since the CAF tweak converts the base cost into Unit Type + Move value + Move type-1, the new cost per point of CAF for a Rapier is (3 +2 +1 -1) 5. It's CAF of -3 times 5 equals -15. Thus 6 (move) -15 (CAF) +6 (weapon) equals -3.

Having a zero value is bad enough, but having a negative one is just unworkable. I suppose this really shows just how bad the stats are on the Rapier.

The only "easy" fix that I can think of would be to establish a minimum value allowed for any model. Probably somewhere around one to three points.

_________________
Net Epic Coordinator

Hi!

Thanks for the explanation.

I see two work a rounds.

One you have mentioned of a "minimum value".

The other is re-working the stats to make it more appealing.

I suspect quite a few units will be revisited to question/redo their stats or role based on current efficacy.

It is kind of odd that for a similar unit, the tarantula is so much better. So perhaps a reworking of the rapier is what is needed.

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules

I'm going to suggest waiting until I can get a few more lists worked up and posted to see if this happens much before we seriously think about adjusting stats on things.

Still, that said, probably all that would be needed would be reducing the CAF penalty from -3 to -2. Whether we'd want to only adjust the Rapier or all of the Light Artillery in such a way is another issue.

_________________
Net Epic Coordinator

Tweaked values adjusted for recent revision to Transport formula costs and methodology.
________________
__ Space Marine Formations
_Company _ value post Tweaks and Transport revision
Veteran ____ 735
Terminator _ 845
Tactical ___ 470
Assault ____ 655
Devastator _ 470
Battle _____ 525
Scout ______ 475
Land Raider_ 360
Bike _______ 330

_Special: [all Infantry with accompanying Transport are Command vehicles]
Apothecary: __________ 70 (Rhino or Razorback)
Apothecary on Bike: __ 80
Chaplain: ___________ 110 (Rhino or Razorback)
Chaplain on Bike: ___ 150
Chapter Master: _____ 160 (Rhino or Razorback)
Chapter Master Bike:_ 210
Forward Observer: ____ 90 (Rhino (Infiltrate) only)
Grey Knight: ________ 255
Inquisitor: _________ 210 (Rhino or Razorback)
Inquisitor on Bike: _ 265
Legion of the Damned: 215
Librarian: __________ 100 (Rhino or Razorback)
Librarian on Bike: __ 115
Ordo-Malleus Inq: ___ 155 (Rhino or Razorback)
Ordo-Malleus on Bike: 205
Techmarine: __________ 70 (Rhino or Razorback)
Techmarine on Bike: __ 80
Drop Pods: __________ 205
Marine Dropship: ____ 490
Warhound hull: ______ 610
Reaver hull: ________ 705
Warlord hull: _______ 780

_Support:
Assault:___________ 225
Devastator: _______ 160
Flamer: ___________ 160
Scout: ____________ 115
Tactical: _________ 160
Terminator: _______ 270
Terminator Assault: 295
Veteran: __________ 260

Attack Bike: ____________ 160
Land Speeder (5): _______ 225
Land Speeder Tornado (3): 145
Land Speeder Tornado (5): 220
Land Speeder Typhoon (3): 150
Land Speeder Typhoon (5): 225
Marine Bike: ____________ 130

Combined Dreadnought:
- 4x Contemptor Mk1: __ 110
- 4x Deredeo: __________ 90
- 4x Furibundus: _______ 80
Mutilator Dreadnought: _ 100
Destroyer: ______________ 85
Punisher/Contemptor Mk2: 125
Robot: _________________ 190
Scatolo Combat (Flamer): 135
Scatolo Assault (AC): ___ 85
Scatolo Heavy (ML & Lc):_ 75

Hunter AA: __ 80
Land Raider: 145
LR Crusader: 150
LR Helios: _ 175
Predator: ___ 90
Razorback: _ 105
Rhino: ______ 70
Sabre: ______ 65
Vindicator: _ 90

Mole Mortar: 25
Rapier: ____ -5
Tarantula: _ 40
Thudd Gun: _ 20

Whirlwind: 90

Marauder: __ 430
Thunderbolt: 575
Thunderhawk: 335


_ Marine models

Model: ___ value post Tweaks and Transport revision

Apothecary: _______________ 49.5
Apothecary on Bike ________ 69.5
Assault HQ: ______________ 104.5
Assault: __________________ 41.5
Chaplain: _________________ 85
Chaplain on Bike _________ 133
Chapter Master: __________ 127
Chapter Master on Bike ___ 187
Devastator: _______________ 25
Flamer: ___________________ 25.5
Forward Observer: _________ 64.5
Grey Knight: _____________ 122.3
Inquisitor: ______________ 174
Inquisitor on Bike _______ 234
Legion of the Damned: _____ 95
Librarian: ________________ 74.5
Librarian on Bike ________ 102.5
Marine HQ: ________________ 68.5
OM Inquisitor: ___________ 122
OM Inquisitor on Bike ____ 182
Scout: ____________________ 35.5
Scout HQ: _________________ 52.75
Tactical: _________________ 25
Techmarine: _______________ 49.5
Techmarine on Bike ________ 69.5
Terminator CA: ____________ 86
Terminator HQ: ___________ 121.3
Terminator: _______________ 75.2
Veteran: __________________ 46
Veteran HQ: _______________ 88
Attack Bike: ______________ 45
LS Tornado: _______________ 61
LS Typhoon: _______________ 62
Land Speeder: _____________ 62
Marine Bike: ______________ 36.25
Marine Bike, Command: _____ 69.38
Contemptor Mk1: ___________ 45.34
Deredeo: __________________ 38.34
Furibundus: _______________ 33.84
Punisher / Contemptor Mk2:_ 51.34
Venerable: ________________ 58.91
Robot: ____________________ 33.5
Scatolo Combat: ___________ 57.21
Scatolo Assault: __________ 36.34
Scatolo Heavy Support: ____ 30.84
Hunter AA: ________________ 34
Land Raider: ______________ 61 [Transport 2 slots: Inf 1/1 or W 1/2; 1 LA no slots]
LR, Command: ______________ 92 [Transport 2 slots: Inf 1/1 or W 1/2; 1 LA no slots]
LR Crusader: ______________ 61.9 [Transport 2 slots: Inf 1/1 or W 1/2; 1 LA no slots]
LR Helios: ________________ 73.51
Predator: _________________ 36.5
Razorback:_________________ 29.5 [Transport 1 slot: Inf 1/1; 1 LA no slots]
Razorback, Command: _______ 54.75 [Transport 1 slot: Inf 1/1; 1 LA no slots]
Rhino: ____________________ 29.38 [Transport 2 slots: Inf 1/1 or W 1/2; 1 LA no slots]
Rhino, Command: ___________ 54.88 [Transport 2 slots: Inf 1/1 or W 1/2; 1 LA no slots]
Rhino, Command (Infiltrate) 74.88 [Transport 2 slots: Inf 1/1 or W 1/2; 1 LA no slots]
Sabre: ____________________ 26.5
Vindicator: _______________ 37
Mole Mortar: ______________ 11.25
Rapier: ___________________ -3
Tarantula: _________________ 9.5
Thudd Gun: _________________ 9
Whirlwind: ________________ 38
Thunderbolt: _____________ 239
Marauder: ________________ 178.5
Thunderhawk: _____________ 279 [Transport 6 slots: Inf 1/1 or W 2/3 or LA 1/2]
Dropship: ________________ 512 [Transport Company: Inf, LA, W, V] *
Warhound hull: ___________ 543
Reaver hull: _____________ 630
Warlord hull: ____________ 695
Drop Pod Assault: _________ 43.5 [Transport 2 slots: Inf 1/1 or W 1/2 or LA 1/2]
Drop Pod Support: _________ 42.75
Drop Pod Deathwind: _______ 36.75
___________________

* The Dropship is an odd model. It is listed as holding 18 stands or 6 vehicles. 18 stands is enough to carry an Infantry-based Marine Company IF they leave their HQ stands behind, which one never would. 6 vehicles is only enough for 2 detachments. I've gone ahead and valued this one as if it can carry a full Company. This means that the "maximum" number of stands it can carry would now be 20 (three detachments of six stands, plus two HQ stands) or ten Vehicles (three detachments of three, plus a HQ). It is my opinion that this is less of a stretch than restricting it to only holding two detachments of anything, partly because this adjustment makes it more useful for it's intended role and partly because this model never existed during 2nd edt / TL so I have no attachment to it. If anyone has a serious objection, please say so and why.

_________________
Net Epic Coordinator

Hi!

I have a bunch of those dropships, and offer no objection to the recommendation.

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules

Found and fixed an error with Drop Pod values.

_________________
Net Epic Coordinator

I would suggest changing the text entry for the Dropship (in your "with Errata" document) to reflect the change to it's capacity above. It would probably be best to specify the exact number of stands (IE 20 Infantry or Light Artillery) or models (IE 10 Walker or Vehicle) it can carry as opposed to saying "one Company", as saying the latter would imply it is limited to carrying Companies which I doubt is true.

_________________
Net Epic Coordinator

Hi!

Will do. I have several other things being pointed out to change as well.

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules

Updated for errata and I left off a couple of things. Specifically:

Marine Bike HQ CAF & HQ.

Grey Knights Morale.

Added a bit to the cost of the Librarian's Psychic Powers to account for Force Dome (Psychics cost now 30, still a bit arbitrary).

Added Special Characters on Bike to models listing to show exactly how much difference it makes. Note also that under the Points Formula upgrading these to Bike or Jump (oops, haven't done Jump yet) should not be free.

_________________
Net Epic Coordinator

Updated values for NetEpic Gold pdf formations for tweak2. This post only covers models and formations in the current pdf and those that can be directly extrapolated from them (mainly Special characters with alternate transport options).

__ Space Marine Formations
_Company _ tweak2
Veteran ____ 719
Terminator _ 861
Tactical ___ 444
Assault ____ 625
Devastator _ 494
Battle _____ 514
Scout ______ 349
Land Raider_ 389
Bike _______ 290

_Special: [all Infantry with accompanying Transport are Command vehicles]
Apothecary: __________ 66 (Rhino)
Apothecary: __________ 67 (Razorback)
Apothecary Jump ______ 66
Apothecary on Bike: __ 67
Chaplain: ___________ 104 (Rhino)
Chaplain ____________ 105 (Razorback)
Chaplain Jump _______ 122
Chaplain on Bike: ___ 125
Chapter Master: _____ 156 (Rhino)
Chapter Master: _____ 157 (Razorback)
Chapter Master Jump _ 180
Chapter Master Bike _ 187
Forward Observer: ____ 86 (Stealth Rhino only)
Grey Knight: ________ 251
Inquisitor: _________ 212 (Rhino)
Inquisitor: _________ 213 (Razorback)
Inquisitor Jump _____ 236
Inquisitor on Bike: _ 243
Legion of the Damned: 211
Librarian: ___________ 94 (Rhino)
Librarian: ___________ 95 (Razorback)
Librarian Jump _______ 97
Librarian on Bike: __ 102
Ordo-Malleus Inq: ___ 150 (Rhino)
Ordo-Malleus Inq: ___ 151 (Razorback)
Ordo-Malleus Inq Jump 174
Ordo-Malleus on Bike: 181
Techmarine: __________ 66 (Rhino)
Techmarine: __________ 67 (Razorback)
Techmarine Jump ______ 66
Techmarine on Bike: __ 67
Drop Pods: __________ 206
Marine Dropship: ____ 496
Warhound hull: ______ 578
Reaver hull: ________ 647
Warlord hull: _______ 715

_Support:
Assault:___________ 214
Devastator: _______ 170
Flamer: ___________ 154
Scout: ____________ 116
Tactical: _________ 150
Terminator: _______ 272
Terminator Assault: 289
Veteran: __________ 253

Attack Bike: ____________ 148
Land Speeder (5): _______ 216
Land Speeder Tornado (3): 139
Land Speeder Tornado (5): 209
Land Speeder Typhoon (3): 140
Land Speeder Typhoon (5): 211
Marine Bike: ____________ 113

Combined Dreadnought:
- 4x Contemptor Mk1: __ 107
- 4x Deredeo: __________ 99
- 4x Furibundus: _______ 88
Mutilator Dreadnought: _ 100
Destroyer: ______________ 93
Punisher/Contemptor Mk2: 105
Robot: _________________ 196
Scatolo Combat (Flamer): 151
Scatolo Assault (AC): ___ 86
Scatolo Heavy (ML & Lc):_ 83

Hunter AA: ___ 103
Land Raider: _ 157
LR Crusader: _ 158
LR Helios: ___ 209
Predator: ____ 103
Razorback: ___ 104
Rhino: ________ 65
Sabre: ________ 67
Vindicator: ___ 98

Mole Mortar: 51
Rapier: _____ 7
Tarantula: _ 97
Thudd Gun: _ 43

Whirlwind: _ 106

Marauder: __ 473
Thunderbolt: 583
Thunderhawk: 365


_ Marine models

Model: ___ Tweak run 2

Apothecary: _______________ 48
Apothecary Jump ___________ 58.5 [15cm Jump]
Apothecary on Bike ________ 60 [Cavalry 30cm]
Assault HQ: ______________ 104
Assault: __________________ 40
Chaplain: _________________ 82
Chaplain Jump ____________ 109 [15cm Jump]
Chaplain on Bike _________ 112 [Cavalry 30cm]
Chapter Master: __________ 128
Chapter Master Jump ______ 161 [15cm Jump]
Chapter Master on Bike ___ 167 [Cavalry 30cm]
Devastator: _______________ 29
Flamer: ___________________ 25
Forward Observer: _________ 63
Grey Knight: _____________ 120.6
Inquisitor: ______________ 177.9
Inquisitor Jump __________ 211 [15cm Jump]
Inquisitor on Bike _______ 216.9 [Cavalry 30cm]
Legion of the Damned: _____ 94
Librarian: ________________ 73
Librarian Jump ____________ 86.5 [15cm Jump]
Librarian on Bike _________ 91 [Cavalry 30cm]
Marine HQ: ________________ 68
OM Inquisitor: ___________ 122.5
OM Inquisitor Jump _______ 156 [15cm Jump]
OM Inquisitor on Bike ____ 161.5 [Cavalry 30cm]
Scout: ____________________ 35
Tactical: _________________ 24
Techmarine: _______________ 48
Techmarine Jump ___________ 58.5 [15cm Jump]
Techmarine on Bike ________ 60 [Cavalry 30cm]
Terminator CA: ____________ 81
Terminator HQ: ___________ 122.6
Terminator: _______________ 74.4
Veteran: __________________ 46
Veteran HQ: _______________ 89
Attack Bike: ______________ 41
LS Tornado: _______________ 58
LS Typhoon: _______________ 58.5
Land Speeder: _____________ 60
Marine Bike: ______________ 31.5
Marine Bike, Command: _____ 64.75
Contemptor Mk1: ___________ 44.68
Deredeo: __________________ 41.18
Furibundus: _______________ 36.68
Punisher / Contemptor Mk2:_ 43.68
Venerable: ________________ 59.83
Robot: ____________________ 35
Scatolo Combat: ___________ 63
Scatolo Assault: __________ 35.68
Scatolo Heavy Support: ____ 34.68
Hunter AA: ________________ 43
Land Raider: ______________ 65.51 [Transport 2 slots: Inf 1/1 or W 1/2; 1 LA no slots]
LR, Command: _____________ 101 [Transport 2 slots: Inf 1/1 or W 1/2; 1 LA no slots]
LR Crusader: ______________ 65.93 [Transport 2 slots: Inf 1/1 or W 1/2; 1 LA no slots]
LR Helios: ________________ 87
Predator: _________________ 43
Razorback:_________________ 29 [Transport 1 slot: Inf 1/1; 1 LA no slots]
Razorback, Command: _______ 55.5 [Transport 1 slot: Inf 1/1; 1 LA no slots]
Rhino: ____________________ 26.89 [Transport 2 slots: Inf 1/1 or W 1/2; 1 LA no slots]
Rhino, Command: ___________ 52.39 [Transport 2 slots: Inf 1/1 or W 1/2; 1 LA no slots]
Sabre: ____________________ 28
Vindicator: _______________ 41
Mole Mortar: ______________ 21.38
Rapier: ____________________ 3
Tarantula: ________________ 23
Thudd Gun: ________________ 18
Whirlwind: ________________ 44
Thunderbolt: _____________ 243
Marauder: ________________ 197
Thunderhawk: _____________ 305 [Transport 6 slots: Inf 1/1 or W 2/3 or LA 1/2]
Dropship: ________________ 517 [Transport Company: Inf, LA, W, V] *
Warhound hull: ___________ 516.5
Reaver hull: _____________ 578
Warlord hull: ____________ 638
Drop Pod Assault: _________ 40.5 [Transport 2 slots: Inf 1/1 or W 1/2 or LA 1/2]
Drop Pod Support: _________ 46.5
Drop Pod Deathwind: _______ 34.13

_________________
Net Epic Coordinator

Hi!

Cool let me know when all the tweaks are done to make my pdf.

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules

Next I will be posting the expanded formations I have come up with for Gold. However, before I do, I want to give a quick warning. Some of these formations break certain conventions held through 1st, 2nd, and NetEpic, and some people may have a strong negative reaction to them. Keep in mind that all formations posted in the next few posts (aside from those that repeat standard formations) are entirely OPTIONAL and may only be used with the consent of all players involved in the battle.

Please keep an open mind when reading through these. I am not trying to destroy any fluff, I'm just trying to present options. I like fluff. And options.

Point A: Some of these I almost did not post, but then I had the thought: "What if there was a Marine Chapter out there that had no (or nearly no) Land Raiders but still needed to mobilize their Terminators? Well, they would just have to use Rhinos."

Point B: As far as Gold is concerned, Infantry is Infantry and anything that is listed as being able to carry Infantry can carry any Infantry stand. Gold does not have a "Bulky" ability or anything like it.

Point C: Just to repeat, all of these are optional. If you don't like them, don't use them. Nobody will force you to.

_________________
Net Epic Coordinator

_________________
Net Epic Coordinator