Tactical Command
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Army List: Eldar
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=173&t=25674		 Page 1 of 12
Author:  primarch [ Sat Aug 03, 2013 8:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Army List: Eldar
Hi!

This thread is for posting on anything related to the revision of the Eldar Book.

Those whom wish to supervise this list, please state so in your post and compile an editable document of the changes that are posted.

Thank you!

Primarch
Author:  Irisado [ Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Army List: Eldar
I'll start taking a look at the Eldar section of this book only during the course of the next few weeks. I'll be focusing on unclear rules, typos, and other possible mistakes for the most part. I think that it's probably easiest to put these into a notepad document, as word doesn't play nicely with a lot of other programs. Is that okay with you Primarch?
Author:  primarch [ Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Army List: Eldar
Irisado wrote:
I'll start taking a look at the Eldar section of this book only during the course of the next few weeks. I'll be focusing on unclear rules, typos, and other possible mistakes for the most part. I think that it's probably easiest to put these into a notepad document, as word doesn't play nicely with a lot of other programs. Is that okay with you Primarch?



Hi!

That's fine. I use Open Office, which is free, so you could use that as well.

Primarch
Author:  Mattman [ Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Army List: Eldar
A comment from a guy in my group:

One major issue I noticed is that Eldar cannot ally with Dark Eldar according to the netEpic ally rules. This is a common and totally unfounded misunderstanding of the background as people sometimes assume they have the same hatred that elves and dark elves have in fantasy (and many other universes presumably). Dark Eldar are more like the black sheep of the family.

Regards,

Matt
Author:  Riquende [ Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Army List: Eldar
I'd like to revise the costs of the Tempest cards generally, and Windrider Hosts as well. Revise them upwards a touch.

Tempests are fast, tough, and have excellent damage output, as well as being able to make pop up attacks. 600-650pts for the squadron and 1100-ish for the Host sound a bit fairer.

The Windrider host is just abuse. A friend just getting into the game noticed and and calculated it as 1100pts worth of stuff for 650pts and queried why you wouldn't take one. I think 900pts is stil a decent discount.
Author:  Irisado [ Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Army List: Eldar
Hold your horses there!

Tempests are quite expensive enough, thank you ;). They already take up a sizeable chunk of points if you invest in the squadron of three, and the host is very expensive. It costs more than the Titans, and they're a lot more threatening when used correctly.

I can't remember what the cost of the Windrider Host was in second edition. It may have been 650, but I feel that it is a touch too cheap as well. I'd only raise it to 750 though, because Jetbikes and Vypers are not that flexible, in that terrain is the best way to defend against them, so they're not as versatile as infantry in that respect.
Author:  The Bissler [ Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Army List: Eldar
Hello! Interesting proposals Riquende, and while I understand your concerns I have to agree with Irisado that they are on the harsh side!

The Tempests are incredibly powerful, that I concur with; particularly now that they have the Superheavy bonus where even if they fail an armour save they won't necessarily be destroyed. As things stand, I'd probably agree that some increase is in order, probably 550 for a squadron and 1000 for a host.

However, things aren't going to remain as they stand. The new Titan rules are about to come into effect which will see Phantom and Warlock Titans beefed up (reactor location removed from the front of the Titan and the Titans will be able to act as HQ units, ie charge and first fire). When you take that earth-shattering change into consideration, 900 points is actually going to be at the high-end of costs. In smaller battles I'll definitely be looking to throw Titans in rather than Tempests because they'll offer much better value for points spend.

I completely agree that the Wind Rider host used to be horribly overpowered, but NetEpic Gold clipped the host's wings. They only cost 550 for a host now, but you only get 1 Vyper squadron and 2 Jet Bike squadrons for that - as opposed to the old 650 for 2 Vyper squads and 3 Jet Bikes. That has brought it into line with other armies, for example; Dark Angel's Ravenwing is 500, and Squat Guildbiker Company 600 points. Ork and IG equivalents are cheaper but they are much more difficult to co-ordinate due to their command rule restrictions.

Sorry to disagree though, interesting points raised! :)
Author:  Riquende [ Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Army List: Eldar
Quote:
Tempests are quite expensive enough, thank you


500pts for 3 superheavies that can move faster than most factions' regular vehicles, have a 1+ save and can output long ranged, high TSM firepower from pop-up positions can in no way be considered 'expensive'. They only thing they don't have is crazy high CAF or massive PD.

I believe the Windrider host has always cost 650, I remember a mate using it when we were kids and we remarked then that it was cheap. 750 is still too cheap though.

Quote:
They only cost 550 for a host now, but you only get 1 Vyper squadron and 2 Jet Bike squadrons for that - as opposed to the old 650 for 2 Vyper squads and 3 Jet Bikes.


You need to check again - the 650pt, 5 squad option definitely still exists (if only for one Craftworld).
Author:  The Bissler [ Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Army List: Eldar
Riquende wrote:
You need to check again - the 650pt, 5 squad option definitely still exists (if only for one Craftworld).


Do many people play Saim-Hann Craftworld? Even if they do, note that Saim-Hann Craftword are penalised to some degree as they may not use a Tempest Host (reading between the lines here your friend has been fielding both which is definitely not on). Also, while not explicitly prohibited, the rules pretty much state that Phantom Titan Hosts for Saim-Hann are out of the question as well.
Author:  Mattman [ Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Army List: Eldar
Normal craft worlds only get the 3 detachment version. Like Bissler says, only Siam Hann can take the Wind Rider Host at the cost of losing Tempests.
Author:  Riquende [ Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Army List: Eldar
Quote:
Even if they do, note that Saim-Hann Craftword are penalised to some degree as they may not use a Tempest Host (reading between the lines here your friend has been fielding both which is definitely not on).


My firiend hasn't used them at all yet and is aware of the restriction. However... he doesn't see the point in any other Craftworld because of the savings the Windrider host gets you.

Quote:
Like Bissler says, only Siam Hann can take the Wind Rider Host at the cost of losing Tempests.


No, they lose the option for the Tempest Host. If they lost access to Tempests entirely that would be fine, but as it is they have to not get a 100pt saving (on 6 tanks they may not have been taking anyway) to get a whopping 450pt saving.

Also, what I'm reading on this thread is that Tempest Hosts are "very expensive" (apparently, I guess when you play Space Marines you don't bat an eyelid at 900pt company cards), so losing the option to take them isn't really a raw deal, is it?
Author:  Mattman [ Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Army List: Eldar
Hmmm, interesting, completely missed that it only applied to the Tempest Host and not the normal squadrons. It begs the questions then, was that part missed and why not just restrict them from using any superheavy?

One option (rather than changing the costs) would be to adjust the army construction rules for Siam-Hann. So ban the Tempest Host (as is) and then all super heavy support formations are considered special instead.

Maybe this is another good reason why the chapter/craftworld options should be split out of the main army books so the core units can be reviewed first before getting embroiled in balancing the chapter/craftworld stuff.

Matt
Author:  The Bissler [ Wed Aug 07, 2013 5:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Army List: Eldar
It just means you can't save 100 points by taking the host as opposed to 2 squadrons (as every other craftworld can). So if you want the Wind Rider Host plus (effectively) a Tempest host you'll pay 1650 for it.

I don't think it's helpful to compare a Tempest Host to say 850 for a battle company where you get 19 stands and 10 Rhinos. Both Companies/Hosts perform completely different functions. The Tempests have firepower which could decimate the Battle Company if they were in open ground. But a Tempest Host could only hold 2 objectives, technically a battle co could hold 4. Devastators could hold up in a building, throwing 12 dice of fire at Tempests, while I'd fancy my chances of taking out 1 squadron of Tempests with a full assault detachment.

In short though, I do think 900 points is a hell of a lot for 6 tanks, particularly if you are looking at playing a battle for 3,000 points or less.

I still think it's worth keeping in mind how powerful the Eldar Titans are going to become as well for roughly 650 - 850 points (depending on what you arm them with). That makes me think that 900 points is about right for the Tempest Host.

Sorry to disagree Riquende, I hope you can understand my reasoning here with my continued reluctance to increase the points costs.
Author:  primarch [ Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Army List: Eldar
Hi!

If you haven't noticed it already, I posted a thread in the core rules section regarding a points cost system. I suggest some thought be given on whether or not its worth the time and discuss my opinion (and experience) on the matter.

It's a very old point of discussion that perhaps should be definitely address.

Primarch
Author:  Irisado [ Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Army List: Eldar
Riquende wrote:
500pts for 3 superheavies that can move faster than most factions' regular vehicles, have a 1+ save and can output long ranged, high TSM firepower from pop-up positions can in no way be considered 'expensive'. They only thing they don't have is crazy high CAF or massive PD.


I still think that the highest you could go is 550. Yes, they have lots of advantages, but if you take them as an Eldar player, you are forced to compromise elsewhere because of their cost, so the rest of the Eldar army has other weaknesses which can be exploited.

Also, even with all that durability, they are vulnerable to being assaulted. Thunderhawk attacks, and fast moving assault troops, for example, are very handy for taking out Tempests, or tying them up if you cannot destroy them.

They're tougher than they used to be in second edition, but the cost increase that you're asking for is far too high.

Quote:
I believe the Windrider host has always cost 650, I remember a mate using it when we were kids and we remarked then that it was cheap. 750 is still too cheap though.


No, it's not, especially since it's a smaller formation than it used to be. I'd actually forgotten about that, and given how small it currently is, I'd say leave its cost as it is. Jetbikes and Vypers are very brittle. Eldar generals have to think very carefully about how to use them, especially if you're playing a skimmer heavy Eldar list, and you find yourself having to use some of the Jetbikes more defensively to protect your more vulnerable grav tanks from assaults.

The current formation for all bar one craftworld is 550, so an increase to 650 is the maximum I'd be prepared to support, and even then that might be too much. It would require play testing.

Quote:
You need to check again - the 650pt, 5 squad option definitely still exists (if only for one Craftworld).


Increase the cost 750 for Saim-Hann if the standard host is increased to 659, and the job is done :).
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